Bullets in a family pot--disasterous laydown.......

scrub · #1 12-20-2003, 12:43 AM

Hey guys. I've recently switched over from playing UB no limit to three party 2/4 tables. I've been having pretty good success, but I'm pretty concerned about how I played this hand.

Just sat down at a full table--don't recognize anyone. Pick up bullets in my first button round UTG + 1. UTG limps. I raise. The ENTIRE table calls.

Flop comes J 6 2 rainbow. Checked to me. I bet. Five callers including BB, UTG, and LMP.

Turn comes another Jack. Checked to me. I bet. Called by LMP and UTG. This doesn't bode well...

River is a 9--no flush draw out. UTG bets out. I decide that UTG or LMP must have a jack, and I figure I'm going to lose 2 bets finding out too often to justify the call. I muck. LMP raises. UTG calls, turns over K2o for bottom pair. It's good.

Does anyone else make this laydown? I was new at the table, and had never played with any of the other players before...

Flame away!

scrub

JohnShaft · #2 12-20-2003, 12:53 AM

Repeat after me
"I will NOT make Big Folds in Big Pots"

This is like a what, 15 Big Bet pot on the River. Yowzer. No way in hell do I make that laydown.

Incidentally, the least you should have done is call the single bet and fold to the raise. I can't believe you made the fold for one single bet (even though the guy after *did* raise, headsup)

If it had been two bets TO you on the River then your fold would have been debatable somewhat.
I'll ask you a question, did UTG play his hand like a Jack? I don't think he did AT ALL. Most all players will Checkraise you on the Flop or Turn here. Or bet into you to get you to Raise.

LMP's bluff raise is a gutsy move but I'm not sure he would have done it to both of you, particularly with you screaming "overpair!". You had to throw in at least the one bet minimum.
You know that. I know that. Your dog knows it.

"I will NOT make Big Folds in B.....

wontons · #3 12-20-2003, 11:30 AM

did you go on tilt after that hand? I wont blast you bc eveyrone else did already but you have to look at the action and i agree if nothing was happening on the turn..u def should have called.

bunky9590 · #4 12-20-2003, 12:27 PM

Scrub doesnt tilt. (at least not that Ive seen) [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Nottom · #5 12-20-2003, 02:07 AM

Does anyone else make this laydown? I was new at the table, and had never played with any of the other players before...

I've seen some weak laydowns but this takes the cake I think.

You are getting 17-1 from the pot and no one has shown any aggression at all until this point.

This is a futile bluff attempt far far far more often than a J.

Easy call, not even remotely close.

Tosh · #6 12-20-2003, 02:16 AM

Sorry but this is a terrible fold. You can't go around instantly putting your opponents on brilliant hands just because they suddenly bet. This pot is big, to fold here you have to be damn sure you're not dumping the best hand.

Ed Miller · #7 12-20-2003, 02:21 AM

This is the single worst mistake you can possibly make in limit poker. So congratulations... you can only go up from here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

fluff · #8 12-20-2003, 03:41 AM

Heh, not too long ago I was making all kinds of weak tight folds like these, so don't feel too bad. However it has to stop.

In this case the pot was 17:1 so you can think of it this way:

-Is there a 1 in 17 chance your hand is good?

-If you call here, will you win the hand at least 1 in 17 times?

I would think the answer to those questions should be easily a resounding yes.

crockpot · #9 12-20-2003, 04:56 AM

had it been a cold raise to you, i would probably fold. but the pot is too big to fold for one bet here. also, the bet here is highly suspicious. why didn't he check-raise the entire field last round, if he has a jack (or better)? the jack is not that bad a card for you, since you beat anyone who hit two random pair. call and hope the guy is on a desperation bluff.

Schneids · #10 12-20-2003, 08:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn comes another Jack. Checked to me. I bet. Called by LMP and UTG. This doesn't bode well...

[/ QUOTE ]
I told another poster this, and I'll tell you this too:
If you do not hear from people on the turn, do not assume that you are behind at the turn. The river card obviously changes nothing in this hand, and nobody raised you on the turn. If they had a jack why would they risk losing money by not raising you on the turn? You simply cannot assume your opponents are crafty enough to wait until the river to come to life (in the case of turn cards that make hands), until they show you they are. You will win much more than you will lose by following this assumption.