Holocaust Denial

[Gamblor]

The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

0 points for this answer.

German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939, my friend, but i won't dwell on that. These guys will, though. The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

Why do you insist on taking such banally obvious underlying circumstances and ignoring them!

Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

BUT!

As you are keenly aware, the movement itself was outcast within mainstream Zionism! No support! No nothing, outside of a few violent splinter groups in Palestine and some political-types in Europe. Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

Of course, the movement remained outcast for a while and on the periphery of Zionist politics. It didn't emerge as a real opposition candidate to ben Gurions Labour Zionism or even enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H...

well, I'll let you finish that one.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939.

[/ QUOTE ] Legislated persecution, yes. Mass murder, no.

I had the opportunity to say this to someone else here, over an exchange of PMs : Even if "the cause is just", it does not pay (certainly not in our day and age) to lie or exaggerate about it, under no circumstances. What usually happens is that the lie and the exaggeration are unmasked and the oppositions grabs onto those and tries to bring down the whole cause. E.g. The Revisionists "prove" that "less than six million jews died" (e.g. 5.9 mln), ergo No Holocaust!

Back to the issue : The Nazis started passing anti-Jewish legislation and anti-many other things legislation as soon as Hitler became Chancellor. (Which does not register as "long long before" in my book but I won't quibble.) They did not start the mass murder until well into World War II, when they set up the camps inside Poland and the death machine cranked up also in Germany.

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The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

[/ QUOTE ] Nope, that is certainly not "the general consensus". The racial laws spawned the Holocaust but did not enact it. Historians trace the start of the crime even earlier, when Hitler outlined his sentiments (and hinted broadly at his intentions) in My Struggle.

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Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

[/ QUOTE ] 0 points for this answer.

At the time of Jabotinsky, the Soviet Union was experiencing its more tolerant period, relatively speaking, as far as Jews were concerned. The persecutions at the top of the power echelon were not affecting the Jewish masses in the USSR. Anti-Jewish pogroms were a czarist specialty.

Jabotinsky did not need to have suffered any "real world traumas" to formulate his ideas -- an ideologue does not need any such, not necessarily. These are facile, American B-movie kind of "explanations" for men's actions or ideas. Jabotinsky found "cause" in Jewish history to formulate ideas such as his -- and, as to whether or not they were "correct", that is another subject.

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Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

[/ QUOTE ] True, true.

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[Reform Zionism] didn't ... enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H[olocaust].

[/ QUOTE ]..which is around 1945. Which means Reform Zionism (a virulent, ultra-nationalist, intolerant and irredentist movement like Britain's BNP, France's National Front, etc) and its equally odious offshoots DID enjoy mainstream public support ever since Israel came to be!

We agree... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]