Foxwoods Final Tourney Hand – Several issues to discuss

[Gator]

This hand is from last nights Limit Hold Em Tourney at Foxwoods. Buy in was $50 + $15. 162 players (Each player started with T2000). Nine players made it to final table. Approx prize money as follows: (10 – 18 $100; 9th $190, 8th $200; 7th $250; 6th $300; 5th $400; 4th $600, 3rd $730, 2nd $1,000 and 1st $3,000).

The final table is in it’s third hand. One player was eliminated in the first hand leaving eight of us. Blinds are T2K/T4K. Betting is 4K/8K. I have T26K. Big Stack is approx T90K with another stack of approx T75K. Three other stacks in the T20K – T30K range. Small blind has just over $30K.

Again, this table is only in it’s third hand. In the previous hand, the current small blind (who was the big blind at the time), checked after two limpers. After a scary flop (something like 9H 9S TH) a limper bet and the big blind called. He called a bet on the turn and another on the river and turned over A J to take the pot with ace high. In other words, I saw him call three bets with Ace high. That’s the only hand I’ve seen him play in the whole tournament.

With that in mind, please provide feedback on the following hand.

I’m in the big blind with 9C TC. It’s folded around to the small blind who completes and I check. (Pot size 8K)

Flop is JH, TS, 6D.

Small Blind bets T4k, I raise to T8k, Small Blind reraises to T12k. (Pot size 32K)

Turn is QD (JH, TS, 6D).

Small Blind bets T8k. I go all in for T10K. (Pot size 52K)

River is 2C.

Thoughts on this play in general and as it relates to this stage of the tourney, stack sizes etc. Results to be posted later.

Thanks.

P.S. Any of you at this table?

[Philuva]

There is a big difference b/t calling down with A high and betting into someone else and then making it 3 bets.

I would say you are toast here.

Given the fact that you are in good position to get into 3rd place, I would pick a better spot than 2nd pair no kicker against someone betting into me.

[BottlesOf]

I was there, busted out about 23 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Tough spot. I agree with your preflop check. On the flop, it's hard to say. The fact that he called before with A high tends to make you think he's loose, but also passive. It does show that he doesn't always raise preflop with a very good hand, since he checked his option that hand (which is usually a mistake).

I can't put him on a hand clearly enough to make the decision. And it's very hard to fold after putting in half your stack when you've got a hand that MIGHT be in the lead.

I won't say you made any mistakes, but if I was there, and could judge his dismeanor, I might say otherwise.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ironman007]

I would bet your beat here. If the small blind has only 30+K in chips, he had to have been all in or close to it with AJ and was either making a combination of a desperate call/read or experience with the player in the hand.
He probably has a J as his style is much more aggressive on this hand which is probably not his style since an aggressive player would have raised with AJ vs limpers. It is almost always incorrect to limp in a limit hold em tournament.

[Gator]

Greg, Philuva and Ironman thanks for your replies.

Bottles – I wonder if we played at the same table. If you busted out at 23, we could have been at the same table when it was at four tables. Were you by chance at the table with two attractive women (one of which had a gold fish as a lucky charm)?

Anyway, here are the results and more importantly, these are the questions I was hoping to have answered.

Pre-flop: As the big blind, I think everyone agrees that not raising with T9 suited is the correct play against just the small blind.

Post-flop: I get middle pair, weak kicker and an outside straight draw. Maybe, after watching him play one hand, I should have categorized the Small blind as overly passive and read more into his bet after the flop. Even so, head to head, are you suggesting that I lay down middle pair to a bet from the small blind? I know if I’m the small blind, I will sometimes bet against just the Big Blind post flop if the Big Blind hasn’t raised, to see if I can steal. The board is positioned so that he might have a four card straight and a semibluff isn’t out of the question. Shouldn’t I punish that move? If a laydown with middle pair isn’t correct, then should I just call? I hate calling in that I don’t learn anything and if he is on a steal, I want to win it there.

OK, his reraise tells me I’m in trouble – this is my first indication that I probably am toast. I give him credit for a pair of jacks with a low kicker (even a passive player in the small blind will raise the big blind with AJ if it’s folded around).

There’s T24K in the pot and it’s T4K to call. Seems to me, that even I know he has jacks, this is not a bad call on my part. Would you lay down here?

Turn: Before the turn, I’m planning to fold to a bet unless I get some improvement. That will leave me with just T10K and I will be the small blind. Still, I may be able to hang in there a position or two and increase my winnings a bit. But the turn is a Queen. Now I have second pair and an open ended straight. If my read is right, I have 13 outs. He bets 8K – I could cold call (and probably right thing to do) but going all in with the 10K isn’t that much different given I have a 2K blind approaching.

If I catch an out, I have legit chance to win tourney.

By the way, he turned over J 3 and won the hand with a pair of jacks.

So, should I have folded to opening bet post flop, not raised, folded to reraise, not called turn bet? Thanks again.

[BottlesOf]

When I busted out it was down to three tables. There were no women at my table at this time. It was table 2, I believe, the one closest to the poker room and further away from the windows.

I hope to enter another one soon, as I'm anxious to get another shot. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Don't beat yourself up here. In the absence of more information about the opponent, there is no clearly correct play, and none of your decisions were clearly incorrect.

I might have only flat-called the turn, on the slim chance that the Q scared him enough that he would check his J3 or the like on the river. That is, even though it's very unlikely to change the outcome, occasionally you run into players that ignore your miniscule stack size, and check the river.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[BamaGambler]

[tan]
How does the Foxwoods get away with charging 30% fee? That's absurd.
[/tan]

[Greg (FossilMan)]

How can they charge less?

It's $15. For that fee, the average player in this event is going to be at the table for probably about three hours. So, that's about $5/hour going to house. That's the lowest fee they charge for any of their time games, and less than they get in the rake games (which max out at $4/hand).

It's not like I'm saying it's a great deal, and they could get by with $50 + $10, but $15 isn't outrageous. Especially since Foxwoods gives you more play for a $50 event than any casino in the country I'm aware of. And while I'm sure there must be a place or two out there that might structure their events for more play, I'm confident the average structure provides much less play than Foxwoods.

Looking at tourney fees as a percentage is essentially a mistake. If you say 10% is reasonable, does that mean Foxwoods should've charged us $1000 vig on the $10K buyin WPT event they just held, and called it a bargain?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)