Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop

[11t]

When I said this is semi-suicidal isn't because you could very well be ahead but that you have no idea where you are in the hand so you are just shoving your chips in on the flop and hoping for the best.

Without a good read (which you rarely have this early in a tournament) I would prefer to have an idea where I am in the hand before I make a decision to committ myself.

I'd have folded too the min-bet though, I am weak-tight.

[durron597]

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I'd have folded too the min-bet though, I am weak-tight.

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Like I said, folding is definitely not "bad". I just thought at the time that pushing was +EV and thus better than folding.

[lastchance]

Why not check-raise? I mean, you're not married to your hand yet, check-raising gets in money on a spot like this, you're in the SB. If a bad turn card comes, you can easily check-fold your way out of this. If a good turn card comes, you can lead turn more soundly.

[11t]

I'd prefer the lower variance route of finding a better spot later is all.

[durron597]

Check raise, fold to a 3 bet... and I suppose I can safely fold if I get a call, lead turn and he pushes? I feel like that costs a lot of chips...

[PrayingMantis]

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Preflop: I'm out of position, I don't mind a multiway pot with my hand so I complete.

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Good.

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Flop: Ok the flop comes 3 unders with a flush draw possible.

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And some straight draws. But remember it's an unraised pot, at a $16 buy-in, when the blinds are still low. People can limp with all sort of things, and they are not very wrong doing it, especially from LP. 2 pair isn't very probable with the specific flop, but it's also a possibility. Surely sets, and of course - a few overpairs, maybe not AA-KK, since it wasn't an open-limp, but people are sometimes doing strange things PF with big pairs. 99-TT is very reasonable and fits the post-flop action too. The more I think about it, you'll be facing a hand like ATs-KJs hearts a big percentage of the time. It's a hand that is not folding to a reraise all-in on the flop, but loses a lot of value if it doesn't improve on the turn.

So, there is indeed a chance your hand is the best here, but maybe not by far if at all (considering pot equity at showdown againt strong draws) and it's a spot to be played very carefuly. I think about it this way: if someone limped with 75 here, is he just going to win my whole stack because I flopped a marginal overpair?

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Bad board to give a free card too, and I likely have the best hand, so I bet.

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Betting makes sense, but the raise you're facing is a warning sign. Someone likes his hand. It doesn't look like someone is just making a move on you. And it looks a bit more probable that it's a made hand or a very strong draw (overs with hearts, or some SF combination) than garbage hearts (i.e, only one over card) or just a straight-draw, or a bluff. I woudn't commit myself at that point, since I think you have relatively small FE, or even 0 FE. I'd continue very carefully. I'll call the raise and go from there. I think the stack sizes on Stars allow you to make this bet you made, and still call a raise, and then letting go with a a rather healthy stack. It is a toughish spot.

Edit: folding to the raise isn't terrible too.

[durron597]

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I think the stack sizes on Stars allow you to make this bet you made, and still call a raise, and then letting go with a a rather healthy stack.

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How do you play this specific turn if you call?

Edit: So you think raising is the worst of the three options? Even at this buyin?

The point of the raise is to charge draws and also bet for value against a 7 who can't fold top pair.

[lastchance]

It's a line that would work. If you think check-raising costs too many chips against a better hand, then why'd you take the line you took?

I guess bet/calling with intention of leading turn would work, but meh...

Remember:
1. Deny free cards
2. Fold to better hands
3. Get more out of worse hands

I think check-raising does all of these fairly well, and gives you more information against non-donksih opponents. Unless you plan on bet-folding, you are losing a lot of chips here.

I like this line here, especially acting first. I really think check-raising is the best idea, unless you can 3-bet here without having to post on 2+2 (happens when you're on party and your opponents suck, plus you have less chips).

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
The point of the raise is to charge draws and also bet for value against a 7 who can't fold top pair.

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But there are alot of conceivable draws (flush + 2 overs) that would be perfectly correct in calling you. Not to mention sets or overpairs that are very conceivable (more likely sets) that have you crushed. Again, I don't like making huge pots early in tournaments (low blinds) in multi-way, unraised pots when I have a marginal hand like a low overpair. The fact that this is an unraised pot is huge, IMO.

[PrayingMantis]

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How do you play this specific turn if you call?

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Basically I'm going for the cheapest possible SD, the way it was played on the flop. A face card and/or heart on the turn kills this hand for me, but I think that I'll tend to check/fold most other cards too. Pot is 720, you have 1200, it's a very awkward situation. Had you taken the check-raise (not all-in!) route on the flop, and assuming villain only calls the raise and does not push (which makes for an easy fold for you), a turn lead would have make more sense. I don't see much value in leading the turn in our scenario. What I'm saying that if non scare card hits, it might get check-check, and you might even win a SD against an unimproved big draw. Your position sucks. It's an unraised pot. Your hand is marginal. You are facing resistance and strength. What can you do about it?