Flopped flush against PF raiser

rmarotti · #1 01-21-2005, 06:50 AM

Should I have folded the turn? Villain hadn't really gotten out of line, I put him on a big pair or AKish type hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

admiralfluff · #2 01-21-2005, 07:09 AM

I think this is ok. With a 3-bet turn like that, he either has AK with As, a set, or another flopped flush. I think you see a non-spade often enough that this is ok here. A more in depth player read than "he hasn't gotten out of line yet" could change that though.

Festus22 · #3 01-21-2005, 07:23 AM

Fold preflop.

Fold the turn.

BigDan9 · #4 01-21-2005, 07:34 AM

Although I don't think calling a raise in the BB with those cards was necessarily right (with only three other players in the hand, I don't think you were getting the odds to play two low suited cards) I think calling down in that situation was probably right.

Most players would raise with AK (even in the SB) so I think a K plus another card which made him two pair, or a set (which would obviously be better for you and your flush), was the most likely holding. But, obviously, he could have hit a flush himself (I'd be most worried about KxQs or possibly As with a paired rag) so I don't think raising on the turn or river, as he continued to bet into you, would have been the right move.

spydog · #5 01-21-2005, 08:30 AM

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Fold preflop.

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I think I need one more caller to call this from the BB. It's fairly close. Just a ho-hum marginal call.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the turn.

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I disagree. I think he is spadeless 20% of the time. Not the worst fold, but I lean towards a call.

Evan · #6 01-21-2005, 09:04 AM

I wrote a really good post but then accidently close Firefox so here's the sloppy seconds.

1. Fold preflop. Your hand need good implied odds. Your implied odds are much different when you're getting 6:1 immediately compared to getting 3:.5 immediately. If you want me to explain this more let me know.

2. I'd fold the turn. The frequency of times you are not ahead compared to times you will get outdrawn even when you are makes it a good fold IMO.

rmarotti · #7 01-21-2005, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1. Fold preflop. Your hand need good implied odds. Your implied odds are much different when you're getting 6:1 immediately compared to getting 3:.5 immediately. If you want me to explain this more let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely would like to hear more.

Evan · #8 01-21-2005, 09:47 AM

okay, lets look at two scenarios:

1. You're in the SB and there are 2 limpers
2. You're in the BB. UTG raises, one player cold-calls as does the SB.

In both of these situations you are getting 7:1 pot odds immediately. But, more accurately in #1 you're getting 3.5:.5 and in #2, you're getting 7:1 (both measured in small bets).

So let's say that whatever your hand is you have 5% pot equity preflop. You would need to get 19:1 in total to make this play breakeven. In situation #1 you will need to make up 6 bets postflop while in situation #2 you will need to make up 12 bets postflop to reach that breakeven point.

rmarotti · #9 01-21-2005, 09:59 AM

I'm a little hazy from not sleeping for like 36 hours or so, but I think I get this. I'll think about it some more. Thanks for the explanation.