Folding QQ in NL Tourney

[Julia1968]

My brother and I have a difference of opinion on QQ. One of us feels that it is better to bet stronger PF to have less challengers, while the other feels you want more people in the pot in NL tourneys (obviously this question does not apply to KK or AA)

So ...what do you all think? What is the *ideal* situation to have QQ? What is the situation you want to avoid with QQ?

Under what circumstances, if any, would you fold QQ PF? Post flop? Turn? River?

Thanks

[heyrocker]

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One of us feels that it is better to bet stronger PF to have less challengers

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I feel this person is correct, especially in the KK and QQ instances but even in the AA instance. Who wants to limp or minraise with KK, see an ace on the flop and have to fold (or even worse lose) to an A8 who would have dropped it if you had bet harder? or KQ who flops two pair? Big pocket pairs are very good starting hands but they are also quite vulnerable, and the more people in the more vulnerable they are.

[William]

I fully agree with Heyrocker.
I know that many (especially beginners) feel that having a big PP is the opportunity to win a big pot against many opponents, but this is a VERY wrong concept. At a full table, your AA becomes a dog against 4 opponents, and a slight favourite against 3. Much worse of course the lower your PP is.

The rule is very simple, you ALLWAYS want to isolate a player when holding a big PP and the lower your PP is, the higher the price your opponent should pay to get involved in the pot.

Big PP can be very expensive cards when not played properly.
Don't be afraid of everybody folding to your raise, it's better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.

Remember that you can only win big pots when your cards are in danger (or the other players suck)

Take care,
William

[Julia1968]

Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

[heyrocker]

I would be extremely hard pressed to think of a single situation where I can get rid of QQ preflop. Like if three people were all in in front of me, I'd be thinking about it. I'll pretty much try to get as much of my money as possible at this point though. QQ is my cutoff for this, I feel that at JJ this point becomes a lot less true. JJ and TT can be really tough hands to play.

[NotMitch]

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Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

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For me it would be rare. Most that I can think of would have to involve a known very tight opponent and being on the bubble.

[heyrocker]

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is very simple, you ALLWAYS want to isolate a player when holding a big PP and the lower your PP is, the higher the price your opponent should pay to get involved in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one point I would make here is that with lower PP at early levels in a NL SNG I don't think of it as a hand I'm trying to win with as it stands. I'm looking to make a set or bail. So with any pair like 99 or less, I'll just call in and see what the flop brings me. As you get shorthanded, these become a lot more playable on their own, but thats a whole other issue.

[BigEndian]

I think it's a mix of the two points you make. You want to raise with QQ, but you do so because you invite all comers at the higher price. You have a great hand and if 9 players want to see the flop for a big raise (assuming random hands) then you are getting the best of it.

Limping with QQ PF has little value in a full table. You aren't charging people to play inferior hands. This should be obvious.

I notice a mix of responses from people. One the one hand, the sentiment is that you want as few people as possible in the pot with QQ. On the other, is that there are very few scenarios where you fold QQ.

Sure, we'd all feel better if we isolated an all-in with QQ. But it's weak thinking to believe you're raising PF with QQ to chase weak A's and K's from the pot. You're raising because you have them over a barrel and want them to call at the higher price.

- Jim

[VarlosZ]

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Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

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I've done it before (and posted about it over in the Multi-Table Tournaments forum).

The first few hands of a $30 PartyPoker Multi. I get QQ one off the button (about 970 in chips). UTG (2100 in chips) makes a minimum raise to 30, it folds around to me. I make it 100 to go, the BB calls, UTG goes all-in.

He could have something like JJ if he's extremely aggressive, but I have to give him credit for AA, KK, or AK, and I don't like any of those hands (especially early in a tournament where I think I'm one of the better players). I fold.

[Tosh]

You do need to be able to release queens should the situation demand it, and these situations will come up.