Quantifying the difference between JJ and TT?

[Bigwig]

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At level 1, with 10/15 blinds, raising 3-5x is pretty worthless.

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I'm too hungry for dinner right now to go into this seriously, but this comment makes no sense.

[The Don]

Have you played the 22-33s lately, a raise to 60 level 1 does nothing to stop all 4 people from entering the pot. I prefer 90-95.

[Matt R.]

And this is bad with a big pocket pair because?

[SammyKid11]

Well, I only play the 11s right now...but risking so much money to win such small blinds seems like mathematical kamikaze to me. Now, fine -- if you have 3 limpers in front of you and want to throw 7-9BB in, I can deal with that. But if you're open-raising anything on level 1 for that much, I think it's a bad strategy. Though it looks like there's not much consensus here around that. Or is there?

[Matt R.]

There's a consensus (at least I hope there is). Overbetting the pot when the blinds are next-to-worthless is only asking to get called by hands that beat you. You WANT the bad players that call with anything to call you with your medium/big pairs. If you know what you're doing on the flop, you'll come out way ahead in the long run.

[KingDan]

If raise 60, a minraise=105 = Easy Call

[tigerite]

I repeat. So what.

[adanthar]

I won't comment on the raise size debate other than to say that too much is as bad as not enough. However, there is a very difference between JJ and TT that, to my knowledge, isn't in any poker book and is quite simple: The hands bad players CC a raise with are far more likely to contain two overcards to TT than to JJ. When you have tens, someone who calls a decent raise with KJo isn't really making a mistake, whereas they are making a huge mistake (potentially a stacking mistake) when you have jacks. The only coldcalling hands that are a danger to JJ are KQ and AQ, while there are three additional hands of 16 combos apiece (AJ, KJ, QJ) that you do not want calling with tens.

Add the fact that tens are obviously more likely to have an overcard flop and you should often just limp TT while JJ is a clear raise.

Now, let it never be said I don't post any rationale behind my decisions [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[tigerite]

However there is definitely argument for limping JJ in EP.. but we've gone down that road before [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bigwig]

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I won't comment on the raise size debate other than to say that too much is as bad as not enough. However, there is a very difference between JJ and TT that, to my knowledge, isn't in any poker book and is quite simple: The hands bad players CC a raise with are far more likely to contain two overcards to TT than to JJ. When you have tens, someone who calls a decent raise with KJo isn't really making a mistake, whereas they are making a huge mistake (potentially a stacking mistake) when you have jacks. The only coldcalling hands that are a danger to JJ are KQ and AQ, while there are three additional hands of 16 combos apiece (AJ, KJ, QJ) that you do not want calling with tens.

Add the fact that tens are obviously more likely to have an overcard flop and you should often just limp TT while JJ is a clear raise.

Now, let it never be said I don't post any rationale behind my decisions [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Yes. Also, you flop a set or a flop with undercards greater than 50% of the time with JJ, and not with TT.

That's an enormous difference as well.