Were they right to be so pissed?

[hockey1]

I accidentally deleted the hand history from my e-mail, but the hand in question went something like this:

Party $109 SNG. 4 remain. Me (BB) and UTG have about 4500 chips each, button has about 600 and SB has 400. Blinds are 200/400.

UTG calls, SB completes (all in), I check with 95o (suits don't matter).

Flop is J92 rainbow. I bet 800. UTG folds. SB ends up winning the hand with Q9.

UTG, SB, and button all go BALLISTIC at me for betting the flop and driving out UTG, because that reduced the likelihood that SB would get knocked out. Were they right to be mad?

[durron597]

They are only right if you and UTG are the wrong kinds of players. You are a biggish stack, bubble treats big stacks goot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The tiny stacks have a long way to go before they can catch up to you. If UTG is too bubble tight, you can make a lot of chips putting him to the decision for most/all his chips if you do it right (though if he has you covered you can also bust yourself out this way if you try it at the wrong time). However, if he is looser and you feel could get in a situation where you could accidentally bust yourself to him in 4th then they are right. As far as that goes, it's a judgement call. Most times I like the play though [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[kyro]

SB went ballistic? Odd.

I don't know if there's some sort of "understood code" between poker players that if someone is all-in, you check it down HU. But if I'm big stack and I think I have the best hand, I'm not checking anything, I'm giving other people a worse chance of winning, in this case UTG.

[JDO]

Yup.

You can't win the pot with this bet alone. You will see the river. The only variable is how many players will see it with you.

And what do you gain by knocking UTG out of this hand? You have increased your chances of winning from 33% to 50%, but you did the same for the the guy all-in. Translate this to the tourny at large. What happens if all-in loses? You, and the other two, make the money. So in this situation you want as many hands in the pot to lower the chances that all-in will win. In this case, you turned a table advantage of 66% chance of winning, and 33% chance of losing, into a 50%-50% shot. And what do you gain? A better chance of winning a few chips...

Especially in a situation like this, where your hand has a very good chance of not being a winner. Check to the river. It's good poker. Remember, it's about money, not chips.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
And what do you gain by knocking UTG out of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this should be pretty obvious, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
You have increased your chances of winning from 33% to 50%

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens if all-in loses? You, and the other two, make the money. So in this situation you want as many hands in the pot to lower the chances that all-in will win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given stack sizes I'm not at all worried about moneying here. My goal is to maximize tourney $$ EV, which warrants driving out other hands when there's a pretty good likelihood that my hand is better than SB's.

[ QUOTE ]
In this case, you turned a table advantage of 66% chance of winning, and 33% chance of losing, into a 50%-50% shot. And what do you gain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, poker wasn't a communistic game. And you're making the same error as the second quote, above.

[ QUOTE ]
And what do you gain? A better chance of winning a few chips...

[/ QUOTE ]

1200 chips isn't so few.

[ QUOTE ]
Especially in a situation like this, where your hand has a very good chance of not being a winner

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is there a very good chance on my hand not being a winner?

[uw_madtown]

Right on the bubble like that, I check it down. I'd rather sacrifice the "right" play here than risk bumping out a hand that may have drawn out to beat the all-in.

I wouldn't be pissed if I were them, but I don't see any reason NOT to check this down if I were you.

- UW

[Jman28]

Well, assuming you use your big stack to bully around the other stacks on the bubble, and are good at it... then yes...they should be pissed because you just increased your chance of winning and therefore decreased theirs.

But, should they be yelling at you?

Would you be upset if I called your all in and flipped over AA? (yes)*

Would you yell at me for being dumb? (no)*

*Hypothesized answers

You made a play that helps you win, like calling an all in with AA (in almost all situations).

We're out to make money, not to make friends or model airplanes or sandwiches... money

Good play.

[Gramps]

The only time I might check that down is if you're "back on the bubble" yourself (at risk of finishing out of the money) if the all-in player wins the hand - then it might be to your gain to keep the other player in who might draw out on the SB if SB is ahead, etc....

...however, with two very short stacks and a large stack yourself, you have about zero chance of finishing out of the money here, no delicate considerations to complicate matters here. Fire off a bet with your 2nd pair. My gosh, that's 1200 chips in there, don't puss out and let UTG draw out on you. You're going to be in a HU contest it looks like, those 1200 chips are quite vaulable in that contest.

Don't listen to the whiners - your only job is to play good poker. Betting that flop in this cirucmstance is CLEARLY good poker.

If UTG calls you, then check it down. If he's a biatch and "spite bets" you out of the pot on the Turn/River with a nothing hand, well...that doesn't happen very often...you'll still be able to get to the final two the vast majority of the time...and you only risked 400 chips at that 1200 pot...

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG, SB, and button all go BALLISTIC at me for betting the flop and driving out UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise the crybaby blind every time. Sound like scared money to me!

[Cleveland Guy]

THE SB was going to complete on anything - so you have no idea what his hand is.

You made a hand, so it's a good bet. I only think one could get upset if you bluffed at a pot to drive out a better hand.