A10o OOP - Page 4

VoraciousReader · #31 08-19-2005, 12:11 PM

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...have many outs...

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Huh? We had a lot of outs on the flop. Now we've lost both our backdoor draws, we're drawing dead to a set, possibly dead to a better ace, we aren't HU, and this would be a crap-ass place to get c/r'd. I stick to my plan and get as cheap a showdown as I can; you are not going to get a flush draw to fold for one bet.

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Many outs may be overstating the case. However, I'm not betting to fold the flush draw. If SB doesn't checkraise, the only thing I can think we are behind to is 2 pr, and probably not top 2 pr. So a Q or T may give us the best hand (as the board reads now our T would play if we both had AAQQ), or if SB has Q5 an ace may.

And I think most likely if we are called here and not raised, we are winning now.

Getting c/red here would really stink, and I'm not convinced betting out is the best play. If I'm c/red I don't know how I'd play the hand from there (because then I would think SB had trips), which may be the best argument of all for just checking. But when I read the action, my first thought was "bet", and I explained why. I may be overthinking this.

Plus, I'm still lousy at poker, and I have to admit, I haven't seen that many players 3bet the flop and then check the turn (I play .50/1). So my instincts could be wrong.

bozlax · #32 08-19-2005, 12:57 PM

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...I haven't seen that many players 3bet the flop and then check the turn (I play .50/1)....

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This is a weird one at any limit. And, if we didn't all suck at poker, we wouldn't spend as much time posting about it as we do.

A post came up this week from DD about the importance of developing a plan when you see the flop for the turn and river. He was speaking specifically about HU situations, but I think it applies, here. In this hand, my plan would be "be aggro on the flop, and keep aggressing unless played back at, but unless things get really scary I want to see a showdown." So, I'd raise the flop when it first comes to me, call when 3-bet, and now I'm in "get to showdown cheaply" mode, mostly because SB is unknown so I can't expect to make the "best" play based on his tendencies.

bozlax · #33 08-19-2005, 01:02 PM

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The button was not described as aggressive in the OP. Anyway, according to the "big-ace" theory of raising, ATo sucks against a typical pfr. The fact that everyone folded to the button does make it stink like a steal, so in this case calling can be ok, just don't get trapped.

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First off, from the OP:

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Button has generally been aggressive.

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Second, there was a limper in EP, then it was folded to Button, so it stinks like an isolation attempt. Pretty much the same idea, but I'd expect Button's cards to be slightly better in the second instance. Still, a large hand range.

And, not getting trapped is why I'm advocating checking when checked to on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

chucksim · #34 08-19-2005, 02:12 PM

Obviously, this is where I really got confused. With his pre-flop aggression, I thought I was behind. At the moment, him checking really stunk to high heaven.

My first thought was that this was maybe a bad player on a flush draw trying to get a free card "at any cost" while out of position. If I know that, I bet in a heartbeat. However, after getting 3-bet, I'm not convinced that he doesn't have a set or 2 pair and is going for a CR on the big street.

Sklansky bucks aside, I don't want to get whacked here. UTG is drawing at something, or has a weaker Ace, but either way he isn't going anywhere if I bet. Consequently, I take the cheap way out.

Now for the last decision on the river. Without someone behind me, I know what I do on the river. Since he's still there, now what's my move?

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

dethgrind · #35 08-19-2005, 02:36 PM

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Obviously, this is where I really got confused. With his pre-flop aggression, I thought I was behind. At the moment, him checking really stunk to high heaven.

My first thought was that this was maybe a bad player on a flush draw trying to get a free card "at any cost" while out of position. If I know that, I bet in a heartbeat. However, after getting 3-bet, I'm not convinced that he doesn't have a set or 2 pair and is going for a CR on the big street.

Sklansky bucks aside, I don't want to get whacked here. UTG is drawing at something, or has a weaker Ace, but either way he isn't going anywhere if I bet. Consequently, I take the cheap way out.

Now for the last decision on the river. Without someone behind me, I know what I do on the river. Since he's still there, now what's my move?

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

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If you're willing to call this bet, you should have bet yourself on the turn.

Bradyams · #36 08-19-2005, 02:45 PM

This river is an easy call. Since you checked on the turn, this could be a stone cold bluff with a missed draw, or a made hand that you beat. You are good here enough to call this IMO.

Baloosh · #37 08-19-2005, 03:28 PM

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Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

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Check, and UTG will likely check. If he bets for some strange reason, and SB calls, overcall? If SB raises, you can fold. UTG will check the vast majority of the time, however. Overcall can't be right. Raise? Do you like your hand well enough to C/R this into 2 callers? Fold?

If you could be more sure you'd miss bets if you bet this river, then bet after SB checks... but it doesn't sound like you can be sure enough of that to bet it.

pryor15 · #38 08-19-2005, 04:28 PM

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Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

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i think you have to call here. he could have a smaller A, a busted flush, a busted straight, a Q (hey, you never know), and a whole host of hands you beat.

i would have bet the turn though, b/c at least somebody's on a flush draw and you might be able to get it HU

Baloosh · #39 08-19-2005, 05:00 PM

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Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

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Check, and UTG will likely check. If he bets for some strange reason, and SB calls, overcall? If SB raises, you can fold. UTG will check the vast majority of the time, however. Overcall can't be right. Raise? Do you like your hand well enough to C/R this into 2 callers? Fold?

If you could be more sure you'd miss bets if you bet this river, then bet after SB checks... but it doesn't sound like you can be sure enough of that to bet it.

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WTF am I thinking? SB bet here, so checking is out. I meant call. Replace all instances of "Check" with "call."

Or just ignore my post altogether.

bozlax · #40 08-19-2005, 05:24 PM

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If you're willing to call this bet, you should have bet yourself on the turn.

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If you seriously believe this, then you're giving up a lot of hands on the river that you shouldn't be. I wouldn't be raising, and I expect this turns into a 2-way split, but don't fold a good hand to one bet on the river, especially once you've gotten what you wanted. Call, and if UTG raises I probably call that as well. If it's two back to you (which it won't be), I'd give it up, there, but it'd be pretty tough and the cat would take one hell of a beating.