100/200 Omaha8 hand Bellagio/Sklansky

[Danielih]

Hi. I thought this was a decent hand for discussion and I am curious as to Davids response to my comments on the hand should he read this. Not all the details may be 100% but this is as close as I can remember. The game is running 6-7 handed, There is one extremely weak player and two other players who are mediocre omaha8 players at best. I find myself near the top of the players in the game and David finds the best game. One players open limps, David limps there are 6 to the flop (everyone but me)

The flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
The first limper bets out and David thinks for a second and raises, everyone else, folds and it is heads up going into the turn.
Then turn is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] check bet call
The river is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] check bet call

The first guy opens up A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

David shows A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

David quarters him with the running hearts although his 77 was good for high and the 3/4 anyways.

1. I diasagree with his attempt to make the pot heads up. Since on the flop one could reason that his opponent has AA AK A25 A2 diamond draw I am not sure why isolating the opponent with only a draw yourself, a draw that may be for half the pot is the ideal situation. If you simply call the flop then you would get a few callers behind you drawing to worse low hands and possibly high hands. When you raise to isolate you are assuming your 77 is good for high and you are going to make your low which could easily have been counterfeited or not gotten there. If any of the other opponents has low draws and or diamond draws they will not fold the flop to the raise and you end up drawing to a quarter of the pot. While the situation worked out I feel it is a marginal decision at best. David wanted to get heads up, he got heads up with a weaker player and while the weaker player had a better hand than David suspected, David was still a favorite to quarter with the other guy having about 12 outs twice to quarter.

With less players in the pot I feel that raising is a better decision because you can feel comfortable the other player(s) will certainly fold to a raise and you dont want them in the pot. With 4 other players I feel you risk being called and or reraised and are left with a draw to maybe only a quarter of the pot, although perhaps David reasoned his opponent did not have A2.

I think this is an interesting hand because many people wonder when it is correct to isolate in Omaha8 and this is one such occasion when it may be the right play, maybe not.
Regards,
Danny

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]

[snip]
David was still a favorite to quarter with the other guy having about 12 outs twice to quarter.

[snip]
Regards,
Danny

[/ QUOTE ]

That hand is a prime example of why Omaha/8 can drive you mad. Nut low, nut flush draw on flop and you get raised by someone who thinks their pocket sevens are good for high?

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=383905
pokenum -o8 ad 2d qc 7s - ah 2s 7h 7c -- kd 4d 5h
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Kd 4d 5h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
7s Qc Ad 2d 141 415 319 86 0 0 544 0.531
2s 7c Ah 7h 135 319 415 86 0 0 544 0.469
</pre><hr />

[iblucky4u2]

I love to play in a game with 6 players seeing the flop - be it 1-2 or 100-200. Unfortunately, my bankroll at this time does not permit me into those 100-200 games, so this is just one person's opinion. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The real lesson in this hand is how even a good player can make a play that is -EV. Of course in a 100-200 game, the other 4 players might fold to a single bet here, but with an unprotected draw to the nut low and a back door draw to the nut flush, I would prefer to have as many players come along as possible. After the turn, with a made low and draw to the nut flush, I would still want as many players as possible.
Slansky, while he is one of the most respected authors and players, is still capable of making mistakes in judgement. If we all played perfectly all the time, what fun would poker be? As Jackie Gleason said in "The Hustler," "Poker is doing the wrong thing at the right time."

[DPCondit]

[ QUOTE ]
As Jackie Gleason said in "The Hustler," "Poker is doing the wrong thing at the right time."

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that was Edward G Robinson in the Cincinatti Kid.

[akaLogic]

[ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=383905
pokenum -o8 ad 2d qc 7s - ah 2s 7h 7c -- kd 4d 5h
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Kd 4d 5h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
7s Qc Ad 2d 141 415 319 86 0 0 544 0.531
2s 7c Ah 7h 135 319 415 86 0 0 544 0.469
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this like saying that David's play gives him about 46.9% of the 6 small bets of dead money in the pot?

[iblucky4u2]

I stand corrected. Thanks

[chaos]

I think David's raise to knock out the other players increases his equity in the pot for the cost of one small bet. If he let's the whole field in, he is probably playing for only a quarter of the pot.

[vodkaputtputt]

With so many players seeing the flop, and 2 mediocre and one poor player in the game, the bet was a value bet, not an isolation move. Unfortunately for David no one else hit the flop(no A36, no A3dKd). How good could he have been making that raise? At worst how bad could he have been(if he lost high)? Good move, I'd say.

Mark

[Ray Zee]

davids play is so clearly the right play that you have to deeply look at how you think about this game. sorry to say that to you.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
davids play is so clearly the right play that you have to deeply look at how you think about this game. sorry to say that to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about explaining why that is Ray, for the benefit of those of us who are still developing our games?