Microlimit Omaha 8b - 2 hands for review

L0QTiS · #1 07-08-2004, 04:59 PM

I think I have a tendency to play my hands too passive in some cases, even with a monster hand.

Here's an example:

Hand 1:

Paradise Poker 1/2 Omaha/8 (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB

folds, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)


MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

I thought about 3-betting but figured I would probably wait until the river to see if the last card falls high or low. Rethinking this, I should have capped as I pretty much have the high secured here.

River: (9.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

After I got 3-bet, doubts set in. I swear that the last 2 Aces full hands I've had in the last month lost to quads after I capped both the turn and the river.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows Qc 7d Ad Kc (High: full house, kings full of aces).
Hero shows Ah 6h 3c As (High: full house, aces full of kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.75 BB. 

++++++++++++++

I also think I have a problem with "taking one card off" on the flop with very speculative hands

Hand 2:
Paradise Poker 1/2 Omaha/8 (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Hero posts a blind of $1.

I sometimes play this in very late position, but obviously you want a good flop. I posted so I'm in anyway...

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

I just arrived at the table, I have decent position and a very speculative hand given this flop. I've been watching the table before I joined. Very passive, many seeing the flop as shown here, so I decide to call the bet and take a card of and see what happens

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

So I have 4 out to the wheel, and another 3 outs for any 3 which produces 2nd nut low (counterfeiting 23) and a 7 high straight, and a 7 outs for any 8 or 6 for the bad straight. So, with 14 outs, 7 of which either give me a wheel or best straight. Geez, maybe I should have raised...? When I first ran through the hand, I missed the 6 as an out.

River: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO folds, Button folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 shows Tc Kc Ah 9c (High: two pair, aces and tens).
Hero shows 4s 5s 3d 6c (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, five high).
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins 12.50 BB. 

Now, of course I get chided for chasing that miracle 2 and perhaps that's the way it appeared but at the time it didn't seem that way. I just want to know if my logic here was flawed. I'm aware that situations like this can be costly, and I'm willing to release the hand in a heartbeat if the draw got worse, but in this case It didn't seem to. I'd be less inclined to pursue this type of hand if (a) less were in the pot, and/or (b) the board had a flush draw on the flop.

Further, would anyone consider raising the turn to attempt to scare out 24XX or just by virtue of the nuber of outs presented?

I'd be interested in opinions on either hand, thanks!

Beavis68 · #2 07-08-2004, 05:17 PM

first one is fine, it seems like everytime I put in that thrid raise I am beaten too.

The second one - man, I play loose, but this is too loose to me, you are drawing to the 3rd nut low, a 4-2 would have you too so a 3 would just quarter you.

Too risky - but man, it seems like these are the one that always win the BIG pots. I start with A234 I get quarted or even fully counterfietted - A-4-K-7 - huge pot.

L0QTiS · #3 07-08-2004, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The second one - man, I play loose, but this is too loose to me

[/ QUOTE ]

So by this you would infer that the flop call was too loose even though I was freerolling preflop from posting in? Yeah, I suppose I had nothing going for me but speculation and wishful thinking at that point...

Much like Jedi, I'm trying to figure this game out to the extent of where to do battle and where avoid it. This may be one of those 'discipline' hands that I find it hard to not "take a card off the flop" when in late position in a passive multiway pot just to see what happens.

To me, the conditions seemed right but I certainly knew calling the flop that I wanted some very specific cards to fall for me to continue. And just to be clear, I would have released the hand on the turn without a second thought if the turn brought a brick. I may play bad, but not that bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Beavis68 · #4 07-08-2004, 06:43 PM

I am still trying to learn just how speculative I can be and still make money.

I dont like the "take a card off" here, because you are really only drawing to a 2. But there were 8 bets in the pot - but I think this is better folded unless you are psychic. But it worked out - I would like to see buzz's take on it.

L0QTiS · #5 07-08-2004, 07:12 PM

Ok, I think I need someone to pick apart my logic so if I'm wrong I can point to this as an example to say why I shouldn't be pursuing hands like this.

The way I saw it, given the flop of A 7 T rainbow... and holding 3456, I'm really drawing for a wheel card to hit the flop to offer any realistic chance of improving and pursuing the hand any further - 13 outs

If the turn brings:

2
I've made my hand low, cant be counterfeit and have redraw for wheel or high

3
I have 13 outs to improve on the river (four outs for 2 for the wheel and nine outs for 4, 5 or 6 for 7-high straight for high only)

4
I have 13 outs to improve on the river (four outs for 2 for the wheel, three outs for 3 for nut 7-high str8, and six unclean (vulnerable to higher str8) outs for 5 or 6 for 7-high str8

5
I have 13 outs to improve on the river (four outs for 2 for the wheel, three outs for 3 for nut 7 high str8, and six unclean outs for 4 or 6 for 7 high str8

I know I'm vulnerable to a better straight (for some of my outs)
I know I'm vulnerable to a backdoor flush

L0QTiS · #6 07-08-2004, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
... The way I saw it, given the flop of A 7 T rainbow... and holding 3456, I'm really drawing for a wheel card to hit the flop ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This should read " I'm really drawing for a wheel card to hit the Turn "

tiltboy · #7 07-09-2004, 02:05 AM

First hand: personally I'd have 3-bet the turn but you played it fine, IMO.

Second hand: TRASH (TM). Calling that hand in the first place is questionable but calling that flop with your hand is grounds for awarding you the highly coveted Pescadero Award. Here you go: <>>< . Mount it proudly.

DISCLAIMER: Tequila was involved in the creation of this post.

Beavis68 · #8 07-09-2004, 01:49 PM

Pescadero Award - I love it!

That is spanish for dead fish right??

TEQUILLA!

tiltboy · #9 07-09-2004, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pescadero Award - I love it!

That is spanish for dead fish right??

TEQUILLA!

[/ QUOTE ]
Spanish fish are pescados so my award is a bastardization of that. Ole!

L0QTiS · #10 07-09-2004, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
calling that flop with your hand is grounds for awarding you the highly coveted Pescadero Award. Here you go: <>>< . Mount it proudly.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, Ok point noted, but guys, what I'm really after is a little more commentary on why this is not worth purusing. Yes, yes - I'm chasing a hand to the river needing two cards to make what might be a loosing hand.

Please pick apart my outs logic above, I think if I understand where my flawed thinking come into play I can learn to avoid it.