Humble Pie

[DrPhysic]

This post is not one I think a lot of people would make, or enjoy making, but I think the
humble pie is worth the effort, because I don't think I'm the only one in similar circumstance, and because if anyone can help it’s the 2+2 guys (and girls). There are three recent posts that initiated this:

The thread on Zoo: Who here makes over $20/Hr?
The thread on TF: Winning % in Sit N Go's
And CrisBrown’s quote in "Suggestions" post by thomastem: "Yup. Figure your first $1000 is tuition for "poker school" and don't expect to make much profit from it. You may be the exception, having a lot of ring game experience. And of course reading here may help a lot. But you still have to pay your tuition money."

Now I know Poker players wouldn't lie, (Stretch the truth a little maybe). But 2+2 makes it sound like everybody on the site is making $30-$50 an hour, and winning 50%-70% of their sit&go's.

Well, I'm not. I have spent Cris's grand. Partly on books, partly on 1/2, 2/4 ring tables,
partly on SNG's and regular tournaments.

I got on line Sept 15 after reading some of DS's books while on vacation.

I have read TOP(twice), GTBOI(twice), HEP, HEPFAP, Hellmuth, 5th Street, finishing SS now. I have found several articles interesting especially "The Different Stages in a Player's Life" RZ, Skill, Luck, Tortoise, Hare DS, & On Tilt MM. I bought TPFAP DS today, and plan to read PL&NL Poker Reuben and Ciaffone next. (and 22 more books on the list after that.)

I play mostly on Stars, some 1/2 or 2/4 LHE ring, but mostly 10+1 SNGs, and 10&under buyin Tourns both LHE and NLHE. Still learning the differences between LHE & NLHE, either ring or tournament. I consider the low buyin tournaments as an investment more than a loss, because I get lots of hands of poker at a fixed price, and if I win, as I started out to do, that’s fine.

I won 2nd in the SNG two weeks ago, and that was the only one I had won this year. (Update: cashed 4 straight SNG’s on Party Sunday.) I have won $3+addons satellites to get in the Stars 200+15 or 500+30 NLHE four times but not cashed in the tourns. 133rd, 156th, 84th, 400th.

The situation I have found myself in recently is simple: I couldn't win a buck if I was
the only person at the table. And I am NOT on tilt. I'm not playing or betting crazy, If
anything I play too tight. I well know that I need more experience, especially on short
tables. Under my name it says enthusiast, and I am, but I am also a learner, and know I have a long way to go to be a good HE player much less a good poker player.

Now, the $900 plus books that I'm out at the moment isn't killing me. I’m not gambling with the grocery money. I spend 12K a year on Spurs season tickets and as much on fly fishing vacations. That probably makes me one of Cris's "Weak rich fish". (Which I feel like some of the time.)

I am also smart enough to know that when you sit down to learn a new card game at this level you pay your dues. I did it 15 years ago at Hollywood Gin, and 10 years ago at Blackjack. I bring home their money today most of the time at either game. Anyone wanna play gin? I could re-stake myself for poker pretty quickly. Before September I was a better than average kitchen table poker player. I decided to learn it well enough to play with you guys.

I am making this post for a couple of reasons.

One is to let the other learners out there know that all the poker players in the world are
not making $20 and hour or cashing 70% of their SNGs. You're not alone.

The other is to ask for some assistance in formulating a plan that will get me on a winning track. Moving down to micro limits and reading more books until I learn how to play poker is of course one option. Continuing to enter 1+0, 3+0, and 10 cash tourns, and entering 3+addons to the Sunday tourns until I win one and cover the stake is a possibility, and is the one I have largely been using for the last month. It also gives me lots of hands to look at for a reasonable price. So far I haven't covered the stake. I know I need short table practice. I can beat 80% of the people in any game I've been in recently, but that is not good enough to cash. That also tells me I’m playing too tight..

The long term plan is keep playing poker, gaining experience, reading books, and reading on 2+2. At two books a month, in a year I will have finished my reading list including reading the good ones more than once (and will, of course, have a new list). And by then I will either be a solid poker player, or have enough sense to go back to Blackjack and admit this is not my game. It took me more than 4 months and cost more than a grand to learn either of my other two games.

I could use some advice on the short term plan. It would be nice to stop the bleeding.

I would also be interested in hearing from some of our better players: How long did it take you to get to a level where you were winning consistently?

(Probable answers: 1)“About a week and a half!”, 2) “My mother taught me poker while she was breast feeding me”, 3) “I was a poker player in a previous life, and was born this way”).

Thx in advance.

Doc

Ps: After the SNG tonight I entered the $3+0 on Stars. Report follows. Further comment at end of report.
__________________________________________________ ___________
PokerStars Tournament #880579, No Limit Hold'em
Super Satellite
Buy-In: $3.00
1459 players
Total Prize Pool: $4377.00
Target Tournament #839639
9 tickets to the target tournament

Tournament started - 2004/01/28 - 22:30:00 (ET)

Dear DrPhysic,

You finished the tournament in 6th place.
You qualified to play in Tournament #839639 and are automatically registered for it.
See Tournament #839639 Lobby for further details.

In addition a $188.22 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 235.76 tournament leader points in this tournament.
For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at
http://www.pokerstars.com/tlb_tournament_rankings.htm

Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.
__________________________________________________ ____________

The $188 helps both the budget and the confidence level. However, the questions in this post are still valid. I would appreciate thoughts from my friends at 2+2.

Doc

[Stagemusic]

Doc.

Been there and done that. I think we all have. Here is a copy of a little bit of my story, hope it helps.

[ QUOTE ]
For most of us, Poker will NEVER be anything but a hobby. A very lucrative hobby indeed but still, just a hobby. 99.9% of the people that play poker are break even or overall losing players (for our more literal posters...don't quote me on the %, it was just an illustration) who like to play for a chance to stick their hand 6" or so up the Golden Gooses *** and grab an egg or two. It took me 6 months and MANY (mostly small) deposits to make my first cash out of any site. Luckily, I have a good job and could afford to play by making a deposit or two a month. Well, I just consider that my tuition, sort of like starting a new hobby like golf. You have to buy the equipment and pay the green fees to really learn the game. Well, wonder upon wonders, I DID improve. I haven't made a deposit in a few months and have cashed out numerous times since then. Now Poker is more than a game that I love to play. It has become a source for a decent secondary income. I still love to play thank God. I think that if it became a job I would miss the fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have only been playing and studying for 3 months. It took me 6 before I stopped the deposits and started the cashouts. I went down to the microlimits more times than I like to think about. Just hang in there. Your enthusiasm for the game and willingness to invest in yourself will payoff. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[William]

Hi Doc,

Very nice post, and honest, wich is something rare in a poker player.
What you ask is very difficult to deliver, a guideline of how to become a succesfull poker player can't be found, as the only genuine answer in poker, no matter what the question or the situation is "IT DEPENDS"
That beeing said, you can get good advices and some tips, but the real truth, will still be that it depends on yourself, some have it, some don't. It's that simple.

First, you have to be aware that 98% of all players are losing players, or at best "rocks" with a very small profit.
You have also to understand that when you are a constant loser, you normally don't rush to your computer and write about it, so here at 2+2 you will find those 2% that can win, wish to get better or at least have a good undertsanding of the game. You cannot allways rely on what they write, human nature is such that we like to be admired at what we do and much too often, posters will tell a small white lie to be regarded as what they wish they were instead of what they really are. If you are able to admit that you are not playing well in certain situations, and are able to see wich errors you have made and where you need to improve your game, you are halfway there.

It's easy to learn opening hands, betting patteerns and so on, but poker is a game of emotions. Table feeling is crucial(even online) deception is a powerful weapon and image is important, but everything changes all the time, as you will meet different players at different tables. Nobody can dominate every table; you must be able to se that you are not comfortable at some tables and willing to get out of there, not seeing it as a defeat, but as a strategic decision to protect yourself.
You must be able to manipulate your oponents, better than they manipulate you. Allways open/raising 3xBB for example, as many advocate is certainly fine. Knowing that other players expect that from you and changing the pattern often enough to create confusion it's better. Not showing fear is essential.

When I started playing poker, some 10 years ago, one of the better players told me that it takes 4 years to become a winning player. I am not saying that it applies to everybody, so please spare me the wonder stories, I don't really care, (I mean reader's stories, not your's,Doc).
In my case, it was quite accurate. I broke even after about a year(and it costed substantially more than 1000$, so if you can keep it that low, consider yourself lucky) but after that I didn't consider winning a 1000 or so a month like real succes. The way I knew that I had reached a point where poker had becomed an income for life, was when I could seat at a table, knowing that unless something real bad happened that day, I would walk out of that room with somebody's else money. Until that moment, I would allways hope to run well that day or would feel uncertain, fear certain players and so on. Suddenly, all that changed, I still knew that certain people should be avoided, but I also felt that I was feared more than I feared them.
That can only be achieved with experience. You have to be patient and put the required amount of hours at the tables (or in front of your scream).

Now, as I have said before, 98% of the population could put all the hours of the world at the tables, they would still lose, so you have to be honest with yourself. If you are one of the chosen ones, results will follow, and in your case, when I read about the satellites to the sunday tourney, I think all good things will come on due time.

Find out where you feel most comfortable. ring games, tourneys, sng's or wathever. That should be your source of income while you get better at the rest. Analyze your game and define the areas where you feel unsecure (for ex. heads-up) be aware of it and try to improve experimenting a little. Eventually you will find the style that suits you at that precise are of the game, and it will just be a question of practice. Then you will find out that another area of your game needs improvement and will work on that and so on.
It is clever to become a good player at different forms of poker. Ring games, tourneys, but also different variations of poker; omaha, stud, H/L games, etc... this is important because if you allways play the same, you will soon burn out, get bored, and then it becomes difficult to stay focused and win. If you can manage at different games, you can play something else here and there and it will feel like a nice change of pace. You can also play something you find amusing at a cheap level, and just have a good time without endangering your bankroll or play a tourney for the fun of it. Again, only you can now what you need.

I am not the kind that begins his posts with " geee, I have just won this or that" but I will this time talk a little about my results, as an example of what I am saying.
I stink at limit and when i play stud, my brain stops functionning. My long term plan is of course to improve that, but I have allways done quite well at tournaments and NL/PL games. When I started playing at Stars, I saw these huge tourneys with several hundreds participants. I thought the luck factor must be astronomical and I should consider myself lucky to ever make a final table. I ended winning the first one I played,and from september to december I have won 17 of them(5-100$ buy-in), plus all the 2. 3. etc... places. So if you can, results will just follow, naturally. It also turned out that playing so many tourneys was very stressing, and in the long run, less rewarding than playing sng's and ring games, so now I don't play them so often anymore. But again, I got burned out, and maybe I will soon feel like playing tourneys again.

Doc, many more things can be said, and I will too, unless I can see that the thread deteriorates and then of course why should I bother? I'll be happy to answer any questions you and other may have and I will get back with more comments/ideas.
What works for me doesn't necessarly works for others, but we can all get better if we understand how the other players think.

Take care,
William

[Stagemusic]

William,

Great post. Glad to see that the learning curve is there for all of us. Your willingness to give something back to the poker community is commendable. Thank you.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Great post, William.

When I started playing poker, some 10 years ago, one of the better players told me that it takes 4 years to become a winning player.

This sounds reasonable. I wonder if the reality of online poker makes it reasonable to say 2-years? Just wondering.

It is clever to become a good player at ... different variations of poker;

I agree. When I feel stale from HE, nothing sharpens me up more than a little stud/8. It exercises your brain differently.

It's easy to learn opening hands, betting patterns and so on, but poker is a game of emotions.

Great point. I think this is why the game is so hard to master.

Not showing fear is essential.

How does it go..."Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that precedes all others. I will confront my fear, let it pass over me and through me. When it has passed, all that remains is me."

That's probably a horrible misquote, but what do you expect from Trek geek quoting "Dune."

[Cosimo]

I think there are three major reasons why it takes less time to become a winning player online than live:

* more hands played: Even playing only one table, an online player can get in twice as many hands per week as the live player. Minus the travel and waiting time, and the same time at the tables takes fewer hours out of your life, making it an easier hobby to get into. Not having to wait for Friday night also helps here: you can jump online on a Tuesday night after work and play for an hour, with maybe just 10 minutes of overhead.

* lower rake: making a living at B&M 3-6 has to be next to impossible. My local rakes $1 per $10 and takes another $1 for the jackpot, plus a tip of $1-2 per pot. UB takes 50c/$10 and nothing more. In a $30 pot, that's $1.5 out online vs $5 or more live. The result is that online games have a higher EV (all else being equal), lowering the bar for being a winning player.

* lower limits: it's easier to jump into the online pool. After beating the free game, you can move into the 1c/2c; then 25c/50c and 50c/$1. Tuition is lower, allowing more players to get their poker degree. The live player might burn through his bankroll before he learns enough, and then have to wait til he can save up enough to try again.

[Pitcher]

Dr. Physic,

This is just an awesome post! I am amazed at your honesty (which William commented about) and believe it will go a long way toward making you a much better poker player.

I have a bit to contribute. 1st. as good as the books are (beleive me they help!) they are only a starting point. It is difficult to win playing "by the book" As has been pointed out over and over, poker is situational. Until you see situations repeatedly, and develop the discipline to play these correctly (I will settle to close to correctly...) you can't progress. So playing a lot and analzying situations is the only way to really get better.
2nd, slow down a little bit. On-line poker goes so fast that you find yourself making many marginal decisions because you feel "pressure" to play fast. Your 1st take on a situation is usually the best, but only if you have taken a moment to work through it. No one cares about taking a couple of extra seconds...so don't let the online environment overwhelm you.
Finally, I have a book recommendation. This book helped me more than all the others because if you take it seriously it forces you to evaluate your game in an honest manner. The book is Killer Poker by John Vorhaus. It is not like the 2+2 books that try to tell you how to analyze specific situations. I found it invaluable to my development.

Good Luck and hopefully I will not be meeting you too often on the tables (except for very small stakes). Anyone who is as accomplished as you are will rapidly improve into a tough competitor.

Pitcher

[DrPhysic]

Thank you,
Your post is being added to my book with the others. (See my response to the posts here).

Vorhaus has written two books: Killer Poker and Killer Poker Online. Have you read both? Which do you recommend?

The online sounds right, but the other was his original and perhaps more valuable book. I don't know, if you do pls advise.

Doc

[Pitcher]

Hi Dr.

Yes, I have read them both. I believe Killer Poker is the better of the two in terms of helping you develop. Online Poker takes most of the same concepts and puts them in the context of the online environment. The online environment is very different than the local casino (B&M) environment and this book does help you see how that effects your play. Still, Killer Poker 1st, Online next. You won't regret it.


Pitcher

[DrPhysic]

by the way, in my post i mentioned my book list. Largely gleaned from lurking on the books/software forum. both of vorhaus's books are on it. Your post may have moved them considerably higher on the list howeve.

Tx

Doc