Who calls in this scenario?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Give me about 1200-1300 chips and I probably call.

I take a different approach. If I have between 1100-1600 I'm more likely to fold here. Above or below that, I call.

[microbet]

Yeah, it just sounded in the thread like you were saying you were up against pretty much everyone else. I just wanted to point out that most people agreed with you. I'm sure you already knew this though. I was just wasting electrons. I'm late for work.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop using "Do you see why?" it's making it very hard to be nice to the posters in this forum.

citanul

PS: that is not just for scuba, but for everyone. especially people who are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. DYSW is almost always arrogant and insulting. (Though it may not be intended that way.) If you have a point that you think others might miss, then explain it.


GG

[valenzuela]

IS THERE A REALLY HUGE DIFFERRENCE BETWEEN LOSING THE ALL-IN OR FOLDING?????? If you fold u have 860 and villain has 490, if you lose you have 610 and villain has 740....well its not the end of the world. IS THERE A HUGE DIFFENCE BETTWEEN WINNING AND FOLDING? Well u have 1200 chips, in 3rd place and 5 dudes left. You will have more chips, more flexibility to make better desitions and to outplay the field( dont take this as sarcasm I actually mean this)

anyway : WHY WAIT TO MAKE +EV DESITIONS? WHY ??

Thats my point, this is my last post in this thread, again scuba take it easy but first folding is correct and now folding FOR U is correct...youre slowly getting away from what u say...its very natural for us humans to do that i do it like once a week.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats my point, this is my last post in this thread, again scuba take it easy but first folding is correct and now folding FOR U is correct...youre slowly getting away from what u say...its very natural for us humans to do that i do it like once a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

A player with a below average to average bubble game understanding should call in this case. A very strong bubble player has a tougher decision. Folding for Scuba is probably correct.

There are times when players with a good grasp on proper end-game play should fold marginal ICM+ spots, and this is what I think Scuba means. It's important to identify these spots, and this one is close which is why this discussion is good- it contemplates a play based on Hero's perception that his understanding of bubble play exceeds that of his opponents ENOUGH to make this a fold. I don't think Scuba is "getting away from what he said".

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]

I figured that argument in favor of a call were that button would push with any two, ...
...



I thought the arguments for a fold included the fact that raiser may have something significantly better than any two, ...


[/ QUOTE ]


Some posters made the point that button would push with any two, but absent a good read on button, this is unjustified. There are people out there who would never push a hand like 84o in this situation.

A good analysis, IMHO, would assume that button has a hand in the top 'X' percent, where X is between 25 and 75. It looks to me that the question is still close, though.

I voted for fold because I suck at shortstack play, and I want to stay as far away from that condition as possible.


GG

[Scuba Chuck]

Valenzuela, now that I know that you're 16 years old, I have to give you a lot more credit. I think you have a very good grasp on this concept. Hopefully hand discussions like this will help you be a WSOP poker player some day.

[ QUOTE ]
IS THERE A REALLY HUGE DIFFERRENCE BETWEEN LOSING THE ALL-IN OR FOLDING?????? If you fold u have 860 and villain has 490, if you lose you have 610 and villain has 740....well its not the end of the world

[/ QUOTE ]

The big differences lies in folding equity, and your ability to wield that power to your advantage.

You have great points. I don't think that calling here is incorrect. I just believe that posters here on this forum all agree that they think they are the ****more skilled**** players at the table whenever they sit down. If I am to apply this thought process to everyone here, then I think that folding here is the better move for all who are of the opinion they are better skilled than the field. +200 chips does have FE against 3 of the remaining 5 opponents. Losing those 200 chips could be damaging to your FE. Valenzuela, I suspect you'll agree that winning 150 chips without a showdown, is more attractive than a 60% chance losing 244 chips, and a 40% chance of winning 500 chips. If you disagree then our differences are more related our differences in FE beliefs.

In the end, you seem like a very smart kid. You've made solid counter points. The math, however marginal does say to call. I don't think that you could make too many mistakes if you always played by the math. Good luck in your endeavors.

[valenzuela]

ty..i said i wouldnt post anymore because i realized that i was giving the same arguments on every post I made. I hope to be a great player someday...its easier to be a good player for somebody like me( chilean and 16) nowadays with internet forums and pokersites . 2+2 its the second most important forum in my small poker adventure(sry but cardplayer gave me 15 bux on a freeroll) . About the hand I will say 2 more things, you have enough chips( 3x the pusher) to hurt the pusher. You increase your chances of winning or coming second.

[Scuba Chuck]

dude, you made your point. I've made mine. Enough said. Now go enjoy some of that great Chilean wine, as that's what I did when i was 16.