push or fold under 10 bb's rule

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]

I bet half pot on flop leave me 5bb and fold to a check raise. It does not matter if i hit or not.
Most of the player at low limit are not capable of bluffing check raise with nothing. I wonder if he would stop and go me with nothing either. I actually try this a few times and they shut down stealing immediately. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I am very comfortable playing JJ-AA this way. HU, I am not folding JJ for rest of my chips if K flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say both button and BB have around 10xBB's. Folded to Button who raises 2xBB. What does button do if BB calls the raise then pushes the flop? I use this play as the BB occasionally with marginaly reraising hands (say, A8o or something).

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I bet half pot on flop leave me 5bb and fold to a check raise. It does not matter if i hit or not.
Most of the player at low limit are not capable of bluffing check raise with nothing. I wonder if he would stop and go me with nothing either. I actually try this a few times and they shut down stealing immediately. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I am very comfortable playing JJ-AA this way. HU, I am not folding JJ for rest of my chips if K flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say both button and BB have around 10xBB's. Folded to Button who raises 2xBB. What does button do if BB calls the raise then pushes the flop? I use this play as the BB occasionally with marginaly reraising hands (say, A8o or something).

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise 2.5bb not 2bb.

call if I hit piece of flop and fold the rest. I am willing to call ace high if I am getting 1:3 odds sometimes.

if you call 2.5 raise PF and push on flop, I am getting 1:1.73 to call. I am calling if I hit flop and fold if I don't. The extra chips I gain by catching a bluff is probably offsetting the chips I lost if both of us miss. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Phil Van Sexton]

You are right. My response was pointlessly sarcastic.

I made my post because I know Chris is an excellent 215 player. He is giving good 200/15 advice and we can all learn from this. However, it bothers me when high-limit players disregard any ideas that don't work at 200/15. The 200/15 and 10/1 are different animals, and there is room for more than 1 right answer.

Newer players may not see this. They see a successful player posting a lot of numbers and say to themselves: "the 10BB rule is good, I'll follow that". The problem is that the 10BB rule is not ideal at lower levels where players fold to small raises and the gap between the best and worst players in enormous.

[rachelwxm]

Phil Van Sexton,
please don't take my post negatively. As a matter of fact, I really like your insight of NL play. But sometimes working a little bit math could be helpful too especially for SNGs. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

keep on good work!

[Strollen]

Great discussion but have to say I am now pretty confused.

To use a similar hypothetical
10+1 Party
Blinds 50/100

Hero 1000
SB 2700
BB 700
UTG 3000
UTG+1 600

It is folded to me on the button. I have A7o. SB has doubled up on some great hands and his VPIP is ~20%, BB is looser.

Do I fold, raise to 250, or Push?
I'd normally raise to 250 and fold to a reraise by the SB and call an all-in by the BB.

If I had 700 chips I'd probably fold.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Good question, but this thread has about 5 different questions going at once and my head is hurting. Start another thread and I'll respond later tonight.

[ChrisV]

Yes, although it depends. On the button, especially when raising through a big stack, a 2.5BB raise will be interpreted as not wanting to commit. However from UTG people will give it respect as it's an UTG raise, whereas pushing from UTG is likely to be interpreted as not wanting a call.

Also as Phil said if you have been pushing a lot, deviating from that is likely to look suspicious.

[ChrisV]

Apologies for the 30/31 thing.

I ran my own numbers using the ICM and folding actually comes out better than calling. I'm not sure I believe that. The problem with tournament models of this kind is that they don't take into account blind size. The model gives the same result for blinds 10/15 as for blinds 200/400 which is clearly not the case. If you fold, then as big stack I will not be letting up the pressure. I will raise allin from the button with probably 80% of my hands the next hand. The ICM will probably tell you you have to fold again (you can test this if you like, I've had enough maths). What it's missing is that you are on a clock - your equity is not as good as it thinks because the blinds are eating you up.

[ChrisV]

Well, it isn't a leak in your game if it works, but I think you would want to be taking it down preflop a lot. Situations where you could lose half your stack without showing down are bad news.

If I feel uncomfortable pushing in a given situation with 10BB or less, I take that as a sign I shouldn't be raising at all, rather than that I should raise less.

[ChrisV]

PS: The numbers above are for folding versus raising to 1000 and then calling the push. I just ran the ICM numbers for pushing immediately, making the assumptions:

- BB always folds
- SB folds A2-A6, QJ, QT, 22-55 where he would otherwise have pushed
- I ignored splits for simplicity and used 42.82% win.

The equation is:

(.4)(0.3693) + (.6)(.4282)(.4540) + (.6)(.5718)(.2)

This comes out to 0.333 - a clear winner. The question how fair assuming BB always folds is - the answer is probably "not very". BB complicates things because sometimes he calls when SB calls too. I can't think of a good way to account for his influence.