Bans on Travel

[MMMMMM]

Yes, and I don't think we should necessarily be prohibited from going to places like Cuba nor do I think it is really fair that Bobby Fischer faces charges for violating such a ban. However I do think there is a lot to be said for forbidding nonessential personnel from entering war zones. So...maybe we should bomb Cuba and then everything would make more sense!

[KJS]

Just one piece of evidence to show I'm not totally off in my assumptions. This is my answer to your question "What on earth makes you think that you are not subject to the laws of the USA as long as you are still a citizen of this country?" These kinds of statements make me think that:

U.S. Department of State
Bureau of Consular Affairs

For Immediate Release
February 1997

{Excerpt}

"Once an American leaves United States soil, US laws and constitutional rights no longer apply."

For full text:

http://overseasdigest.com/drug_arr.htm

This is from a State Dep't directive for people who are travelling overseas to let them know they can be arrested and put through the local judicial system, even if they are American.

I am still looking for stuff on offenses which are not prosecuted locally, but can lead to charges in the US against US people for acts they committed while not on US soil. One area is child sex, although I have not found much legal text yet. I am seeing that they use the jurisdiction of "international commerce" to govern these situations, meaning you are prosecuted because of the commercial activity you conducted while abroad. Some sites obviously geared towards perverts who want to go screw young girls are claiming that they are immunce from US prosecution if the sex is consensual because there was not a commercial transaction.

I am starting to believe the truth lies somewhere between my assertion that you are not covered by US laws while overseas and your assertion that I am covered by US laws at all times because I am American. I know you did not say that, I am inferring it from your statement "What on earth makes you think that you are not subject to the laws of the USA as long as you are still a citizen of this country?"

KJS

[Wake up CALL]

Hi KJS perhaps I was not completely clear. I did not mean to infer that you were either exempt from prosecution of local laws when traveling abroad nor subject to US laws that only apply while you are physically located in the US, such as traffic violations and others.

You asked for some qualifying examples. As brad mentioned plotting a terrorist action against the US (poor example but could apply in some extreme circumstances) traveling across International boundries with the intent of participating in a sex act with a minor, and my favorite, US Income tax evasion. Since you live abroad you should be well aware of the 510 day rule and the maximum limit of income from which you are exempted before US tax applies. I am sure you will agree that even though you earn income in another country that as long as you are a US citizen you are subject to the applicable law. Using that as a known fact it is easy to assume that there are other laws which would apply as well.

[KJS]

I am aware of the income tax law and will grant you that as a good example of laws that reach me no matter where I physically reside.

That does not, however, solve my philosophical problem I have with bans on spending money in Cuba, for instance.

The US government has laws against trade with Cubans which govern actions I am taking that relate to myself and the Cuban citizens with which I do business only, and are done within the laws of Cuba. To have my government bar me from acts which are legal in the territory where I am visiting/residing--making supreme their jurisdiction over me--makes me uncomfortable. This is a situation more analagous to the child sex laws we have both cited. As much as I hate to side with perverts, I would, to be fair, have to say I have a problem with those too, since I don't think the US should be telling its citizens what to do in foreign countries if their actions do not threaten the US government or US citizens (ie, plotting terrorist attacks against US targets).

My reason is based on a belief that I should have some method to remove myself from US jurisdiction to protest laws that I morally or ethically oppose. Moving to somewhere else is the best recourse I can think of.

For instance, if I was a gun owner and the US government changed the constitution to outlaw guns, I would like to think that I would be able to relocate to a country where I could have a gun, because gun ownership is a right I want to retain. If the US implemented a law saying that Americans were barred from purchasing or owning guns anywere in the world, I would take issue with such a statute because I would no longer retain the right to own a gun in a country that had no problem with gun ownership.

Thanks for a good debate.

KJS

[Wake up CALL]

"My reason is based on a belief that I should have some method to remove myself from US jurisdiction to protest laws that I morally or ethically oppose. Moving to somewhere else is the best recourse I can think of."

This is not a "Love it or Leave it" post but you do have recourse. By renouncing your citizenship you are able to extricate your self from the freedom to travel restrictions you dislike so much. Now as to absolving yourself of tax liability by doing so is another matter altogether. Under many circumstances renouncing your US citizenship will not free you from the obligation of paying the IRS their due for up to ten more years.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Just one piece of evidence to show I'm not totally off in my assumptions. This is my answer to your question "What on earth makes you think that you are not subject to the laws of the USA as long as you are still a citizen of this country?" These kinds of statements make me think that:

U.S. Department of State
Bureau of Consular Affairs

For Immediate Release
February 1997

{Excerpt}

"Once an American leaves United States soil, US laws and constitutional rights no longer apply."

For full text:

http://overseasdigest.com/drug_arr.htm

This is from a State Dep't directive for people who are travelling overseas to let them know they can be arrested and put through the local judicial system, even if they are American.

KJS



[/ QUOTE ]

I just thought that I should mention that the link you provided is not an official state department site nor that of any sanctioned US government agency so far as I could tell. They have additional links to the State Deptmernt website on their site but linking to the official State Department site says nothing about being exempt from US law while living abroad. I just wanted to clarify that point for anyone who just read your quotations out of context and might assume it was US policy.

[KJS]

Did you go to the link?

It has a report written by the (non-governmental) host of the site, but also contains the full text of the statement from the Bureau of Consular affairs directly after their report.

Just to be certain, here is a link to an official State Department site which contains an update of the same directive I excerpted in my post. Near the bottom it reiterates:

"Once you leave the United States, you are not covered by US laws and constitutional rights."

Full Text:

http://travel.state.gov/drug_warning.html

KJS

[MMMMMM]

"Obviously the US hates Cuba. But, personally, I have nothing against them. In fact, I went there illegally and found it to be a wonderful place."

Well I hope you found it in your heart to tell Castro what an evil bastard he is while you were there.

Since you're so against limits on free speech I hope you at least said SOMETHING to the Cuban government along the lines that they should not be imprisoning and shooting dissident professors and poets for merely expressing their views.

[Cyrus]

I am no "know-it-all" as Wake up CALL calls me and I'm also not a lawyer but this what I know abt jurisdiction :

The law of every country applies for everyone that lives there, in any capacity (citizen, visitor, immigrant, etc). So if shaking hands is a crime in Doofunistan and you shake hands with someone, you will be prosecuted in a Doofunistan court -- unless there's a treaty between your country and Doofunistan that says otherwise.

I also know that you cannot invoke ignorance of the law which you broke, even if it's as silly as that one about shaking hands. (Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.)

In the same vein, if having sex with girls 11 years old and above in Trailerstan is perfectly legal, and an American citizen (or any non-Trailerstan citizen) has sex with a dozen 13-year olds while in Trailerstan, he is not supposed to be prosecuted when he gets back to the States. Not even if his actions are reported all over the American press. Which county's prosecutor would press charges? And on what case, since no complaint would've been filed?

(This applies to common law crimes and not crimes against humanity --- for which, for example, Ariel Sharon was nearly prosecuted in a ...Belgian court. Countries' jurisdiction for such crimes has recently been absurdly if not unilaterally extended.)

I would welcome any corrections to my assertionss above.

Now, about travel :

I don't think that that American lady broke any laws or violated an executive orders. Again, any input to the contrary would be most welcome (cite, please). But if there was a law in America that prohibits even the simple act of traveling to a certain country, say Cuba, then any American who would step onto Cuban soil would have committed a crime. Which would be prosecuted in the county where from he left America for Cuba, if I understand correctly.

Any lawyers around?

[KJS]

"In the same vein, if having sex with girls 11 years old and above in Trailerstan is perfectly legal, and an American citizen (or any non-Trailerstan citizen) has sex with a dozen 13-year olds while in Trailerstan, he is not supposed to be prosecuted when he gets back to the States. Not even if his actions are reported all over the American press. Which county's prosecutor would press charges? And on what case, since no complaint would've been filed."

If you have paid for the sex it is a US crime and you are charged by federal authorities under some statutes related to international commerce. If you can stand poking around sites about age of consent in certain countries you can find out more about this.

KJS