Going pro Article

[TimM]

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do you feel the pace is no problem, and that you could play this way for a few years, or do you see it as temporary until you can move up?
Also how long have you been playing?

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I started playing Dec 2003. It took me about two months to move out of the micro-limits and start playing multiple tables (3 until August 2004, 4 after that). I averaged 20 hours a week until January 2005, and I had a full time job at the time. I quit the job in early February. Everyone in the company was to receive a big pay cut, and I believed the company would not last much longer anyway, so I figured that was a good time to bail and give online poker a shot full time.

I have been playing 30 hours a week since then. So really I have 30 hours more a week to myself. Half of this went towards sleep, and that has been a great thing for me. I have never been a morning person, and I hate to stop whatever I am doing and go to sleep just because I have to be up at a certain time. I really only start to wake up when the sun starts to go down, for whatever reason. I felt like a total zombie all day every day at my job.

So now my 6 hours of play days are like this: Wake up at 2PM, shower, eat, whatever. Play 6PM-9PM. Eat, watch movie, whatever. Play 12AM-3AM. Go to sleep around 6AM. Unless I want to stay single for the rest of my life (and I don't), I probably can't keep these hours forever. Other than this, I don't see a problem with the pace, and I'm only doing days like this 12-15 days each month. The rest are much easier with only one 3 hour session per day, and I throw in a few days off each month too.

Maybe I won't wind up doing this for years, who knows. It's hard to have a real long term plan as I am still in the "moving up, bankroll building, discovering what's possible" phase. But for now my goal is to put away as much money as I can, and maybe eventually put it towards starting a business and/or investments.

[MrEngenic]

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Realistic earnings= 3-6 holdem 1200-1400 monthly.
This I believe is reality,.


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Absolute poker has AT LEAST 6 reloads every month for a total of 1200 $. To clear that you need to play 1200 raked hands. If you 3 table 1/2 6 max you clear at the very least 33 raked hands an hour/table = 10 $ an hour in bonus. Rakeback is another 5 $ an hour for three tables, and 1.5 BB/h should be no problem making it 10+5+3*3 = 24 $/h playing 1/2 6 max on absolute as long as there are reloads.
If you play only when you have a bonus it takes around 120 hours to make 2400 =~ 4 weeks.

[The Dude]

PokerHorse,

You mention needing to make 1.5 BB/100 in the short games, and that this is difficult playing more than 3 tables. I have 8-tabled the 5-10 6max for over 2.5 BB/100, and although I consider myself to be very good, I'm not a shorthanded expert.

Like Ed said, it may not be "easy," but it is "no big deal."

[MicroBob]

someone should link to the original thread from a year ago that I believe was in the books/software forum.

p-horse is correct that lots of people jumped all over him.
I was one of those and it was a VERY long thread.
I remember LostWages was in that thread too I think.


As I recall, p-horse was insisting that you would have significantly higher variance as well because you were playing more tables (something like that anyway).


Lots of the top players around here do not read the magazine forum.
There are several who play 6-8 tables at a time without much problem. With the heads-up displays of your opponents stats that are now available it's even easier to do this.
I agree that not everyone can do this however.


I have been mostly playing 3/6 and 5/10 (full and 6-max) as my sole source of income since Apr, 2004.
Sometimes I'll throw in a tourney or two in there. I typically play anywhere from 4-6 tables.
As I type this post I'm playing just 2 tables of 6-max because that's all I feel like playing.


Still...the math of making $1k/wk playing 3/6 is relatively easy as was pointed out by me and several others in the original thread.

4 tables of 3/6 at roughly 1BB/hr = $25/hr.
40 hours of this is $1k/wk.

Or 5 tables of 3/6 at 1.2BB/hr = about $35/hr.
30 hours of this is $1050/wk


On the 3/6 6-max games on party one can get around 90 hands per hour so 2BB/hr on each table wouldn't be that super-human either even on multiple tables.
Throw in some rake-back in there and I would argue that for the dedicated 3/6 6-max milti-tabler it wouldn't be so impossible to push $2k/wk.


Just because p-horse can't do it he seems to think nobody can do it.
It's not for everyone.
But he is practically saying that those 2+2'ers who actually ARE making a living from the 3/6 and 5/10 games for MORE than 50k/yr couldn't possibly be that good and WILL fall.
This is not only ignorant but it's modestly insulting also.


No problem though....I'll just keep grinding out a living on the 3/6 and 5/10 games while continuing to improve my game and p-horse will continue to tell me that it's really not possible and that I'm just lucky.


FWIW - we've had several threads on 'how many hands to the pros play in a week' and there were SEVERAL who said that they had no problem playing 10k per week or more (and sustaining win-rates of 2BB/100).
I'm not quite as inspired and am more in the 5k-8k range typically which is just fine by me because I also have some more hands in tournaments where I have quite a bit of success too.

[MicroBob]

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I really only start to wake up when the sun starts to go down, for whatever reason. I felt like a total zombie all day every day at my job.

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Interesting.. I have always been exactly the same way.
day jobs killed me.
But when I did sports broadcasting obviously most of my premium work was in the evening.

[PokerHorse]

You shouldnt be insulted micro bob. Having played for so many years in B&M games and seeing the players come and go, i find it interesting how many claim to be making money multitabling low limit holdem.
once again you and others bring up the math. For the last time, I'm not questioning the possibility of it. I'm questioning the ability of players and long term aspects of it.
While you and others are so cavilier about making 1500 a week playing 3-6 or whatever, king yao, who I trust and respect is currently playing 50k hands of 6 maxx etc multitabling 3-4 tables. He has written, first off, about how large the swings are, but also how difficult it is to play well for any long period of time. here is a guy who has written a book and has put himself out there and talks about the realities of playing this way.
I have been playing 3-6 just 2 tables at a time, for only about 25k hands. I'm at 25voip/15pr/1.83bb/100.6maxx games
My experience is constant streaks up and down. I realize that playing only 2 tables isnt the same as 5-6 so maybe my volitility is higher. yao feels the internet is 4 times as volitile as B&M.even multitabling.
So it's amazing to me that so many players are unable to play proffesionally because of the swings at B&M yet, at the same time so many internet players are claiming its no big deal, and they are making an easy 2k a week.
Of course there are players who are making money, and most of those are players who are in the high middle limits and
high limit (ie the salmon etc). these guys arent multitabling more than a couple games. Now that's more realistic. And no, I do believe you are making money bob, but i dont think there is more than a handful of you.
good luck

[MicroBob]

a lot of the full-table multi-tablers play rock-tight and uncreative poker.

VP-13, PFR-4 is not uncommon for these guys.
They still have swings....but obviously are not playing ideally.
But if they are just winning 1BB/100 on 4-6 tables playing this way then they are better off than if they played only 2 tables of 2BB/100 because they are also getting rake-back.


However, it is also possible to play more serious poker on 6+ tables. I don't recommend it and definitely believe we are in the 'rare handful' category here. But guys like Schneids are excellent 10/20 6-max players even playing 8-tables at a time.
But that's too much for me to handle.


But handling 3-4 tables of 6-max isn't THAT unusual. Not everyone can do it obviously. And you won't get great reads some of the time (although you can get GT+ that displays all of your opponents stats right there on the screen so part of your 'reads' are already being made for you) but, again, 1.5BB/100 on 4 tables is obviously better than having good reads on just tables for a 2.5BB/100 win-rate (4 tables of 1.5BB = 6BB....where as 2 tables of 2.5 only = 5BB of course).


I think King Yao is terrific and am very much enjoying his book.
He is not saying anything significantly new though I don't think (although I haven't looked at his blog yet...just going off of what you are saying).
Everyone over in the HUSH forum here (lots of 6-max multi-tablers over there) will tell you that the bankroll swings can get pretty crazy.
But that doesn't mean it's unprofitable. It just means you have to be prepared for such swings.

Last night I was up 110BB's in about 40 minutes on 4 tables of 6-max.
By the end of the evening I was dead even...finishing with a -80BB downswing in my final hour or so.


In the first hour the highlight hand was having TT and getting caught in a PF raising war....then flopping top set and winning a huge pot that got capped a minimum of 3 ways on each round. Naturally my opponents had KK and AA.

In the last hour I had AA cracked 3 different times...flopped flushes running into rivered full-houses...and other similar nightmares.

It happens.



It's interesting because there are many on these forums (myself included) who wonder how a live B&M pro does it.
You either have to grind out a small hourly wage to stay relatively safe. Or you have to have a pretty nice bankroll to play pretty large....but it will still take you pretty darned long to make it to the long-run (since 2k-3k hands in a week would be a lot for a live player).
If internet-poker weren't around to allow me to crank out 7k-10k hands per week (I'm including my tourney hands in there) then I probably wouldn't want to try it as a live pro.

Whereas you are arguing how much more difficult it is to do it as an internet-multitabler as opposed to doing it live (at least at the low-stakes, multi-table grinding level).


Yes - you have the streaks and they can be pretty wacky. But you are cranking out SO many hands that you can get past a 10k hand downswing fairly quickly.
Whereas in live play a 10k hand streak of lousy luck will take several months to ride out.

[PokerHorse]

Okay, I can live with your numbers. i believe you are correct that most players playing 4 plus tables have to be near the 1bb/100 or even slightly less. So they need to play at least 50k hands per month to say make 3k at 3-6. I believe this.
I appreciate totally what you are saying, now just for a second, ponder this. Someone who is playing very tight, very straight forward, etc., who doesnt make moves at the pot when it is small,(just one example), or is unable to take advantage of other situations, is probably playing close to breakeven poker , at best. This player is hoping that at all or most of the tables he/she is playing at, the players are making lots of mistakes to give him/her the edge.
Although I see lots of chasing, i also see lots of over aggressive playing. The chasing is of course great, but getting raised or re-raised by semi-maniacs etc., can be tough to deal with, especially while playing 4-6 tables.
very aggressive play is the great equalizer. In the live game i play, there is a very aggressive wealthy player who is a maniac of the highest order, and although everyone knows how he plays, and of course he is a long run loser, still i see him fairly regularly walk out with 100-150 big bet wins. Aggressive play, even if its incorrect can be a great equalizer in the short run.(or longer)
So the question remains, is there an edge, can you stay focused over time, etc.This is the crux of what ive been saying.
As far as the long run is concerned, it doesnt matter a bit unless you are sure you are a winning player who has a definate edge at the tables you are in. Otherwise you will longrun break even at best, or be a slight loser. It's just the reality of this game.
Bob, you probably have an edge, but just because someone plays profitable hands, it doesnt mean they will be pprofitable in the longrun, and this is something that players dont understand. aa, kk, qq, ak are going to give you a longrun profit pretty much all the time, but as you move down the ladder ,(and not very far, how you play hands that mathematically still show a edge- will determine your longrun earn, (i know you know this).Its doubtful that most multitablers play well enough without tilt etc to make it.With the big swings that can happen online, i believe it is easy to believe at certain times that you are a winning player when in reality you arent. I know a live player who has been winning for over three years, yet I know without a doubt that he is a losing player.
I appreciate your comments by the way as i enjoy the disscussion(debate?0) Bye the way, who is schneids??
good luck

[MicroBob]

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i believe you are correct that most players playing 4 plus tables have to be near the 1bb/100 or even slightly less.

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i did not say this. I was just using the numbers as an example.

Most people playing 4-tables anywhere from 3/6 to 15/30 are likely pushing 2BB/100.
If they focused on just 1 or 2 tables and really tried hard on their player-reads than they might be closer to 2.5BB/100.

I usually am somewhere betwen 3-5 tables mixing 6-max ring with whatever tourneys I might be in the mood for.
I am around 1.5BB/100 on my ring-games.
Many of the multi-tablers in the SS and HUSH forums are better than me.


If you are making less than 1BB/100 then i would speculate that you would be better off playing fewer tables or stepping down in limits....but it's close.

But don't misunderstand my previous post to speculate that most multi-tablers make less than 1BB/100. The winning players around here definitely do better than that and it's pretty much been agreed upon that 1.5BB/100 to 2BB/100 is a very realistic win-rate for multi-tablers at many limits (of course....there are plenty of sucky players out there who are just losing players too).
The reason why it's agreed upon to be so realistic is that so many people are doing it.

The burn-out factor is a different issue entirely and obviously depends on one's make-up.
The younger players out there who grew up on video-games definitely have an advantage...because multi-tabling really just feels like a pretty goofy video-game just processing the info and acting on each hand as quickly as you can.

I'm 34 which is pretty old for these forums....but even I qualify in this 'video-game generation' as I grew up playing a ton of Atari games and the like.
Many a day I spent as a 12-year-old playing Kaboom or Frogger or Joust or whatever video-game was our favorite to play at the time.

[MicroBob]

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Its doubtful that most multitablers play well enough without tilt etc to make it.

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This is true.
Most multi-tablers...just like most poker-players in general...are pretty sucky.


But if you are capable of multi-tabling....and you are capable of playing a winning game...then it's not hard to play pretty decently on multiple tables.

There have been many hand-histories posted in the strategy forums here where someone will say 'I was multi-tabling so I had no reads other than the p-tracker stats on each of my opponents' (or not much of a read at all if there were no stats on the guy).
Still, you can pretty much determine whether a C/R was appropriate at such-and-such point and what-not.



I get the impression that you might a bit older than the kids doing it and you just don't see how one could possibly win 2BB/100 or more at 4-6 tables.
Many long-time B&M pro's who are very used to that game are the same way.

It's a new generation.
People have different talents and abilities.
Some people can play 400 or more hands an hour (95 hands per hour is not uncommon on a 6-max table...and with 4 tables that means you get more hands online in 1 hour than you are likely to get in an entire DAY of live play).


Not everyone can do it....but not everyone can play decent poker even on one table.
There are some of us....and it's a higher number than you seem to think....that can play 1.5k - 2k hands per day and consistently win and keep winning.

You seem somewhat open-minded to the 'possibilities'.

If I could....I would have you sit next to me while I 4-5 table the 6-max games for a few hours and show you that it's no big deal.
I would be able to talk to you about what I'm doing while also watching TV and/or sutfing 2+2.

I'm not THAT hyper-ADD-ish either. It's just multi-tasking and general busyness. I'm playing 3 tables as I type this. It's no big deal.