Terrorists on the Run

[nicky g]

"the objection to the wall has always been its route, not its existence

Is that why you called it an "apartheid" wall? "

Wherever they put it I think it is a pretty stupid solution. But that isn't my main objection to it; ultimately, that's their decision. Imposing it on others should not be.

[Gamblor]

Neither Israel not Jordan have the right to detrmine the future or self-determination of the West Bank's population.

Including the population that was evicted in 1948, and could finally return in 1967?

And the Americans who want to live there aren't allowed to because they're JEWISH?

Well if ISrael is to have the right to control the West Bank until then, it should in the mean time give those people legal rights as Israeli citizens.

They have legal rights, such as the right to take action in Israeli courts, but not rights such as health care and education. That they must do for themselves.

[nicky g]

Including the population that was evicted in 1948, and could finally return in 1967?"

Going in cirlces here. Those people and their descendants should be allowed to return as part of a solution. However, their numbers are insignificant compared to the number of Palestinians expelled adn compared to teh Palestinina population of those areas adn would not significanrtly affect any self-determination decision, and most of the settlers are not their descendants.

"And the Americans who want to live there aren't allowed to because they're JEWISH? "

Er, no... because they're Americans, and completely unrelated to the communities that had to leave. I've already said I favour a binational state under which all Israelis and Palestinians could live wherever they choose in Israel/Palestine. At the moment I see no reason why some American and Russian fanatics should be allowed to steal and colonise vastly disproportionate amounts of land and resources in areas they have no real connection to (or, in fact even if they did; either way they are not entitled to special treatment) from people who do live there, while no Palestinians are allowed to return to homes they have a much stronger connection to.

[MMMMMM]

Shortly before the Rafah incident, Arafat is publicly calling for Palestinians to utilize terror and reject any compromise that does not include full right of return.

Nicky, the problem is that no matter what Isaael does, Arafat and the terror orgs will never give up their goal of bringing about the "right of return" through force and terror. No two-state solution will be truly accepted by Arafat or Hamas et al. On Palestinian public television, Arafat calls the "right of return" a "sacred and inalienable right" and calls on Palestinians to ""find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God." He also says peace is possible, but obviously he means only if Israel accepts the "right of return". No doubt this speech is one reason the King of Jordan recently suggested Arafat should step down.

Article: by Khaled Abu Toameh May. 15, 2004

"Invoking a phrase from the Koran, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat on Saturday called on Palestinians to "terrorize" their enemy.

In a televised speech on the 56th anniversary of the "nakba" (the establishment of Israel), Arafat quoted a phrase from the Koran that tells Muslims to "find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God."

The phrase in the Koran refers to Muslims' wars against pagans. Arafat, however, also signaled that he was ready for peace when he referred to another phrase reading: "If they want peace, then let's have it."

Addressing the Israeli people, Arafat said: "I tell the Israeli people that our hand is extended to making the peace of the brave on this land."

Arafat said that no one in the entire world has the right to make concessions on the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. He also said that the Palestinians would not accept any plan to resettle the refugees elsewhere.

He said in his speech that the Israeli government could not exonerate itself from its moral, political and international responsibility for the tragedy that befell the Palestinian refugees.

"The right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes is a sacred and inalienable right that is internationally protected and endorsed," he said. "This right is heroically defended by the Palestinian people in the face of the Israeli occupation, colonization and against the Apartheid Wall of annexation and expansion and in defense of our Christian and Islamic sanctuaries."

Arafat concluded that the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land is doomed to failure and accused Israel of waging a war of genocide against the Palestinians. He said the Palestinian struggle would continue until the liberation of Jerusalem.

As Arafat was speaking, thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip took to the streets to mark "Nakba Day" by observing a two-minute silence and staging rallies and demonstrations. Senior PA officials and ministers were among the crowds.

During the rallies, Palestinian refugees raised placards with the names of more than 450 Arab villages that used to exist inside Israel before 1948. Many waved Palestinian flags and carried large keys that have become a symbol of the right to return.

In Ramallah, thousands gathered in the city center, waving flags and chanting, "No peace, No stability without the right of return." Children held up placards bearing the names of Arab villages from which their families originated.

Sakher Habash, a senior Fatah official and close aide to Arafat, told the demonstrators that there would never be peace without the establishment of a Palestinian state and the return of the refugees to their original homes.

In Nablus, some 5,000 demonstrators burned a cardboard model of an IDF tank, along with life-sized effigies of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, US President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair. "We say 'no' to all plans that deny the right of return," the demonstrators shouted.

Similar demonstrations were held in Kalkilya, Tulkarem, Jenin, Hebron and Bethlehem.

In Gaza City, at least 10,000 demonstrators gathered outside the Palestinian Legislative Council offices, carrying pictures of Arafat and keys to what used to be their homes. "The right of return is holy, we will return to our homeland," they chanted. Arafat's top aide, Tayeb Abdel Rahim, was at the head of the procession."
Article on Arafat Speech

[nicky g]

As for terrorising your enemy, it depends who he means. The Palestinians have a right to "terrorise" occupation and invasion forces. The Palestinians also do have a legally enshrined right to return; nevertheless it is clear that there will have to be be some sort of compromise on the issue. The Geneva accords which involved PA negotiators pretty much threw the entire right away.

Nonetheless, I also think Arafat should probably step down and has a record of saying incredibly unhelfpul things (not to mention his Israeli counterparts, but nevermind). However, a currently crappy political leadership is not an adequate reason to permanently deny people the right to self-determination or legal rights as citizens of any form of state.
I really have to do some work (he says after going back to add stuff [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Just give it a couple days. The middle east never disappoints in this area. Especially after what...

israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel
israel did to the palestinians
the palestinians did to israel

etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum. It doesn't even matter what is truth and what is lies. The cycle will not break. That's the way everyone over there is so used to it being, that they simply won't ever choose to break the cycle by taking steps themselves to end it.

You may or may not to individually try and argue that I am wrong here, but no doubt the events of the middle east today will prove me right once again.

al

[Gamblor]

Those people and their descendants should be allowed to return as part of a solution. However, their numbers are insignificant compared to the number of Palestinians expelled adn compared to teh Palestinina population of those areas adn would not significanrtly affect any self-determination decision, and most of the settlers are not their descendants.

Those people want no more to return to a Palestinian state than the Arabs want to return to a Jewish State.

We all saw what happens to Jews in Arab states between 1900 and 1948.

The right of return has always been a pretext for elimination of the Jewish state. If you support the right of return, you deny the right of Jews to a refuge-homeland and deny the millenia of persecution they faced.

Would you accept a solution whereby the IDF pulled out of Gaza but the settlers remained? What do you think the outcome of that would be?

[Gamblor]

That's the way everyone over there is so used to it being, that they simply won't ever choose to break the cycle by taking steps themselves to end it

Such as Sharon's disengagement plan?

[nicky g]

Such as Sharon's plan to hold on to the areas he wants and dump the Palestinians in the areas he doesn't want.

[nicky g]

Listen. If those people don't want to live there as par toof an independent Palestinina state, and don;t want to live there as part of a binational state, tehn they don't get to live there. That's up to them.

"We all saw what happens to Jews in Arab states between 1900 and 1948."

Yeah and we saw what happened to Palestinians in Israel in 1948, how Israeli Arabs have been treated ever since and how Palestinians have been treateed by Israel in the territories, Lebanon and elsewhere. The point of a solution is that it gets past this. Given the nature of the problem if noone can get past this and move on there will be no solution, and that if there is no solution noone can get passed this.