A losing play?

[MVicuna]

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You'll need a very loose passive table to limp with A7s after only 1 limper.

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90 % of the 2/4 tables are very loose and passive.

[/ QUOTE ] Why start bad habits? As I mentioned before, my win rate went up and varience went down once I stopped trying to sneak in with this hand at 2/4 and at 3/6 its just pure chip spewing because you don't get a favorable flop often enough to continue on after the LP raise of your limp. You also have to take into account whose behind you and the likely hood of a raise, not just the passivity of the table in general.

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If he 3-bet, so what? Easy fold. Cost me 2 BB, the same as it would've cost me to call down but without the possible fold by the button. That's not entierly true though, since if the button 3-bet me on the turn, he sure would've raised if I had only called, meaning I would have to fold anyway.

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You don't address what happens after your raise. if the flop agressor re-raises? Do you call? Do you fold? reraise?

Do you call/raise/fold if someone bets the river After your turn agression?

Your raise can make hopeless hands fold which you'd love to keep keep betting/calling fold. It would have been tragic if you'd raised and everyone folded when you could have collected 1 more river bet from a hand like KK/QQ who was hoping to catch that gutshot and then decides to call, or a hand that was semi-bluffing catches a pair and bets anyways to try and steal the pot.

You want a showdown because if your behind you probably have 5 outs to improve if you can get to the river, folding the turn is probably a mistake so reopening the betting could just lead to a bad decision in either folding a hand that should continue or putting more money into a pot with a hand thats drawing dead.

So yes, I'm advocating calling down in a 4 way pot. TPWK doesn't hold up enough that you want to put more then 2BB into this pot, but it is good/improves enough that risking 2BB to see a showdown is right.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[StellarWind]

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Why start bad habits?

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Actually the bad habit is adopting fixed standards of preflop play instead of adjusting to fully exploit your opponents' weaknesses.

[MVicuna]

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Why start bad habits?

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Actually the bad habit is adopting fixed standards of preflop play instead of adjusting to fully exploit your opponents' weaknesses.

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The question put to us was framed as a general strategy question. We were given no stats/reads on each opponent, no read on what hands MP1 open limps with, not told how often button raises or how loose the Blinds are. All of these factors are just as important as what 2 cards you hold. It shifts the values of some marginal hands greatly. A7-s is one of those hands it can become a fold/call/raise based on all the factors.

So how can we give good advice on how to play A7s? We can't, we can only give general advice. Generally A7s isn't a good limp with only 1 MP limper.

In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

MarkV.

[StellarWind]

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In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

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Reread your own post. You told him he needed a loose/passive table to play A7s in this situation. He responded that 90% of 2/4 tables qualify. You told him not to start bad habits and went on to point out that the play is bad at 3/6.

I don't know what you meant to say. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. But the implication of your words is that it is a "bad habit" to make this play against soft 2/4 tables because it won't work against the more aggressive players at higher limits.

I object to that concept. The play is either good here and now or it isn't. He can always do something different next time or after he moves up to 3/6 or whatever.

Whether this table or most 2/4 tables qualify is another matter. I would need a positive reason to make this call. A generic Party 2/4 table doesn't do it for me.

[bisonbison]

In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

Meeeeow.

[W. Deranged]

I have to admit I really don't like this play. The button is raising with two people already having entered the pot, meaning it is extremely unlikely that he is on a steal. To me, that means that if he has an Ace of any kind, you are beaten. With the first player firing at the pot into a pre-flop raiser, he could very well have something that beats a good ace, or could have a good draw, as was this case. So, you are very likely to be up against hands that are beating you from both sides, or maybe a better hand and a better draw.

By setting up this play, you are committing to playing for at least 2.5 big bets. For every time that you run into exactly the situation you are in (pre-flop raiser without an A; early position player on a missed draw), I think you will run into 5 situations where you are beaten.

I think you should either raise the flop to figure out where you are cheaply (fully prepared to fold on the turn if the flop is three-bet or someone raise/check-raises the turn), or fold. The earlier analysis that fold is best is probably right.

[Saborion]

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By setting up this play, you are committing to playing for at least 2.5 big bets.

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No I'm not. That's the reason I didn't raise the flop. By only calling I get to see what the PFR does, and that will give me important information.

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I think you should either raise the flop to figure out where you are cheaply (fully prepared to fold on the turn if the flop is three-bet or someone raise/check-raises the turn), or fold.

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But given the pot size and the small bet size on the flop the PFR will often call two cold with quite a few hands on the flop, meaning I don't gain all that much information. If he folds, great. If he calls two cold, then what? He's just as likely to have AK as he is to have a big hand such as KQ, AA, JJ or TT (not including Bayes theorem), setting everyone up for a raise on the turn.

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The earlier analysis that fold is best is probably right.

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If you knew for sure that you're beat and that you don't have the outs to call, sure. I don't think that's true in this case though. A flop raise won't give you that information since anyone with a hand like KQ will be all happy and love the possible check-raise/raise opportunity they now have on the turn and so on.

[Saborion]

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As I mentioned before, my win rate went up and varience went down once I stopped trying to sneak in with this hand at 2/4 and at 3/6 its just pure chip spewing because y]

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There's a big difference between 2/4 and 3/6 imo.

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because you don't get a favorable flop often enough to continue on after the LP raise of your limp. You also have to take into account whose behind you and the likely hood of a raise, not just the passivity of the table in general.

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If I know someone is likely to raise behind me, I don't limp with it. Easy decision. If I don't have that information, I'll limp with any day and twice on Sundays, given how these tables play.

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You don't address what happens after your raise. if the flop agressor re-raises? Do you call? Do you fold? reraise?

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It's implied. I DID say "If he 3-bet, so what? Easy fold. Cost me 2 BB, the same as it would've cost me to call down but without the possible fold by the button." meaning I'm folding to a 3-bet on the turn. Not all that hard to understand that I'm beat if the PFR simply calls the flop then all of the sudden 3-bet the turn. That is regardless of how the other players respond to the 3-bet.

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Do you call/raise/fold if someone bets the river After your turn agression?

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This naturally depends on the river card, where the bet is coming from and how many players, if any, have called the bet.


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Your raise can make hopeless hands fold which you'd love to keep keep betting/calling fold. It would have been tragic if you'd raised and everyone folded when you could have collected 1 more river bet from a hand like KK/QQ who was hoping to catch that gutshot and then decides to call, or a hand that was semi-bluffing catches a pair and bets anyways to try and steal the pot.

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Heh. I raised exactly because I wanted a hand like KK/QQ to fold. If I hadn't raised, he would have enough odds to call that turn bet. This is especially true for the average loose player at 2/4 who doesn't necessarily fold KK even to my raise. And, I really don't mind everyone folding to my turn raise in a pot of that size with a board looking like that.

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You want a showdown because if your behind you probably have 5 outs to improve if you can get to the river,

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If I'm behind I most likely have 2 outs at best, drawing dead on occasionally.

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folding the turn is probably a mistake so reopening the betting could just lead to a bad decision in either folding a hand that should continue or putting more money into a pot with a hand thats drawing dead.

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Since you say "reopening" and "lead to a bad decision" like that, I take it you think I would call a 3-bet? Well, one benefit of the slow-played turn raise is that if when I'm 3-bet, I don't have to call. I don't expect to even have 2 outs most of the time. That turn raise will:
1: Possibly get the PFR to fold a hand with which he may have been correct to call one bet with and thus I'm increasing my winning chances.
2: Will often give me a free showdown if the best hand I'm up against is top pair that has me out-kicked, meaning it will cost me the same as me simply calling down but without the possibility of folding out the PFR.
3: Make it easy for me to fold to a 3-bet since I'm then not expecting to even have 2 outs most of the time. Once again this cost me 2 bets, the same as simpy calling down.

Granted, the BB can have a hand like QJ or so, but unless he's overaggro, he will often respect my slow-played turn raise. A powerful raise that is.

I've heard mixed opinions about the preflop, the flop, the turn and the river on this hand. A good hand clearly given the discussion. I'm still not convinced that I played it poorly preflop and on the turn. I'm more curious about calling the flop and betting the river.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Do I wait till he posts a hand where he limps in MP/LP with Axs at a 3/6 table before I tell him its a losing play? Or should I include it now? In my opinion is it also a losing play in this particular position with only 1 limper. I feeel this is because A7s has a range of opponents it plays best against, that number is 1-2 or 5+. With only 4 people left behind you to enter the pot they'd need to all average 50% VPIP in order for you to get the required amount for it to be profitable.

When I say passive I mean 1%-2% PFR which is not the norm at the 2/4 tables I've played at. Do you mean 3%-5% for passive, I consider that about normal and wouldn't be shocked if I was raised if I limped behind 1 other player in MP.

So, For me to agree with a call here. I'd like a table where the 4 people behind me had a VPIP of at least 40% and a PFR% of 3 or less. That would normally get me a cheap flop with 5 players. Then I would consider limping in MP with A7s. This doesn't describe your typical 2/4 table at party.

Am I being more clear?

Thanks,
MarkV.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I made a post addressing the preflop part of this hand to StellarWind. We can agree to disagree as each player's experiences can be vastly different.

So a flop raise what does that do.


Flop: (8.50 SB) T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button....

Say Button has QQ/KK. He has to call 1BB and we all know BB/MP1 are calling so 7BB that will now be in the pot. He's very sure someone has an ace, but he has a gutshot given how badly people play at 2/4 he has implied odds. I think most people call here for 1BB some fold. YMMV.

Everyone else calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 Calls.

This is typically what happens with a flop raise.

River: (12.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, 3 folds.

Given your flop raise into the PFR everyone is usually convinced you have an ace, so only better hands are calling.

Raising the flop doesn't protect your hand and builds the same pot. Clearly raising the turn is best when you have the best hand as it protects you from the Button the times he's drawing to the gutshot yet changes the final pot size not at all.

My passive line changes it this way.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)

The river now plays very different.

Checked to us and we Bet the winning hand.

3 folds = -1BB -8%
1 Call = 0BB 0%
2 Call = 1BB 8%
3 Call = +2BB +12%

I rarely don't get called in at least 1 spot just to keep me honest given the size of the pot.

BB/MP1 bets a worse hand and we call.

Final pot 12.25BB
1 over call = +1BB. +8%
2 over call = +2BB. +12%

In your line this never happens. I earn roughly what I lose. The over calls aren't common, but they do happen helping pad our profit.

Obviously overcalling loses the same as if we folded to a turn 3 bet.

My line I never fold as a fold would be a disaster due to the size of the pot and the likelyhood of me improving if I am behind or just being flat out ahead.

Your line has places in it where you get 3 bet and fold incorrectly. This is a disaster.

Me losing an extra 9% of the time where I don't protect my hand from the buttons gutshot is more then offset by the 11% of the times I don't fold and improve to the winning hand.

There are subtleties where a turn raise may force out a better hand, but given the size of the pot and the general CS nature of 2/4 this is rarely the case as on.

Or a flop raise may force out backdoor flush draws, but this is also rarely the case as the preflop raiser is the only person our raise confronts with a CC and if he has a backdoor flush draw he'll probably also have a pair and a gutshot draw to go with it and won't fold and may even 3 bet the flop for the free card with his 8+ outs.

Later,
MarkV.