Fun w/AJo - Page 3

FreakDaddy · #21 03-31-2005, 01:22 AM

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It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

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If the average pokerroom idiot is making .19 BB/hand with this junk hand, I'd hate to discover what your standards for a decent hand look like.

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This hand is junk in this particular hand imo. I don't know how else to illustrate this other than to offer an example. One that I think most of you already understand.

Let's say you have K8s UTG - you'd throw this away without a thought correct? Now let's say you're on the button with the same hand and you have 6 limpers. This hand now becomes slightly +EV and is worth a call.

Your pokerroom stats don't take into conisderation position or pre-flop play. EV is a fluctuating number based on the number of players in the hand, your relative and absolute position.

FreakDaddy · #22 03-31-2005, 01:30 AM

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It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

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The tone of your post implies that NL is just limit played for bigger stakes. The reason AJ is a weaker hand in NL is because when you hit the flop with it you usually either win a small pot or lose a big one. NL doesn't allow you to take advantage of this hand's straight potential either, because opponents can take away your odds. In limit this is a much stronger starting hand and not junk at all.

When you say in micros you can "get away with it", I guess you mean because you get odds to draw to a straight more often than you would in a tighter high-stakes limit game. But, this is the micros forum, and we're all here to talk about maximizing our returns in these types of game. I guess I just don't really understand the point of your comment.

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Apparently my tone implies a lot of things on this post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Let me be clarify my post again since things are starting to get read out of context. AJo is junk in this hand imo.

KingOtter · #23 03-31-2005, 01:33 AM

Okay, I had to think long and hard about this one... and actually I've done something like this in the past, when I was paying particular good attention to my opponents.

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Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, CO caps, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

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I don't like AJo when the preflop gets capped coming back. But given the reads, and if I've seen MP3 raise with any pocket pair, A-x and K-x, I'd call him. CO... well, liability against his hand is limited, so you'll really only have to beat MP3.

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Flop: (18.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO raises (all-in), UTG calls, Hero raises...

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Interesting bet from UTG... he has an Ace perhaps? I like raising to build a side-pot that you have a good chance of winning, hoping MP3 doesn't have QQ, AK, AQ (which is unlikely, since he is LAGgy pre-flop).

KO

UncleSalty · #24 03-31-2005, 01:39 AM

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

First, lest things continue to be mis-read: I certainly respect a lot of the posts I've seen you make and am enjoying this discussion.

I think a lot of the time when you raise AJo after 2 limpers you can expect to fold MP3 and CO and buy yourself the button. I'm assuming that is the initial goal of Entity's raise. I think the percent of the time this move is successful is what largely makes this a +EV hand. Playing it passively from MP with up front limpers may very well drop the EV and make this hand "junkier". Would you agree that AJ is a good hand when you've acquired good position?

Catt · #25 03-31-2005, 01:49 AM

I would like to be dealt lots of junk, please.

Aaron W. · #26 03-31-2005, 02:09 AM

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It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

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If the average pokerroom idiot is making .19 BB/hand with this junk hand, I'd hate to discover what your standards for a decent hand look like.

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This hand is junk in this particular hand imo. I don't know how else to illustrate this other than to offer an example. One that I think most of you already understand.

Let's say you have K8s UTG - you'd throw this away without a thought correct? Now let's say you're on the button with the same hand and you have 6 limpers. This hand now becomes slightly +EV and is worth a call.

Your pokerroom stats don't take into conisderation position or pre-flop play. EV is a fluctuating number based on the number of players in the hand, your relative and absolute position.

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No, AJo is simply far from junk at the micros. You can look up the EV by position. I'd link to the AJo page directly, except that there's a script that they run to give you the data. You're not going to find "with two limpers in front of you" as an option, but it will get you about as close as you can hope to get.

The heart of the dispute seem to be that you greatly overestimate the preflop selection and postflop play of the two limpers in front of you. Not only are you quite likely to have the best hand of the three of you, given that you have position on them and the assumed better postflop play, you stand to make a killing with that hand in that position. The raise also keeps players behind you from playing their speculative multi-way hands which will make protecting your hand difficult (well... it at least makes them call incorrectly if they choose to play them). Your raise also helps to buy position. Limping this hand is +EV, but not as +EV as raising it.

yellowjack · #27 03-31-2005, 02:12 AM

I love using the shortstacks to check/call-reraise because you know they're going to bet/raise behind you. They're my pets.

FreakDaddy · #28 03-31-2005, 03:18 AM

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No, AJo is simply far from junk at the micros. You can look up the EV by position. I'd link to the AJo page directly, except that there's a script that they run to give you the data. You're not going to find "with two limpers in front of you" as an option, but it will get you about as close as you can hope to get.

The heart of the dispute seem to be that you greatly overestimate the preflop selection and postflop play of the two limpers in front of you. Not only are you quite likely to have the best hand of the three of you, given that you have position on them and the assumed better postflop play, you stand to make a killing with that hand in that position. The raise also keeps players behind you from playing their speculative multi-way hands which will make protecting your hand difficult (well... it at least makes them call incorrectly if they choose to play them). Your raise also helps to buy position. Limping this hand is +EV, but not as +EV as raising it.

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Thanks for the discussion. I don't trust pookeroom stats but I went over my own stats and AJo in that position is .15 for me, but I limp most of the time. Now I don't have stats with EP pre-flop limpers, but at .5/1 you're probably right. It may be slightly more EV to raise. This discussion may have brought up a slight leak for me so it's worth further consideration. It's still debatable in my eyes, but I do play slightly more NL than limit.