Ho Hum

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I won't spend a lot of time flaming here cuz i would have likely played it similarly. Betting the turn is an option, but one i think you wisely chose to pass on, given that there were too many players still in the pot. Basically I like it. I think you had the winner too, did you raise it?

al

[Coilean]

The EP bettor folded without showing his cards, I showed my trips and the SB folded.

The preflop and flop were pretty straightforward, I thought. Suited aces play very well against loose limpers (especially if no one else has an ace, which could easily be the case here), so a raise should get more money in when I have the best of it, and may make them more readable postflop. Since loose passives shut down pretty quickly, my flop raise should usually buy me a free turn card or get me usable information, while often causing my opponents to misread me for a high pocket pair (besides which I was getting great value with 4 opponents putting in money).

The major point of contention here seems to be my turn check. I certainly understand the appeal of a turn bet, but in this case I don't think it's the best play. Despite elysium's faith in the strength of my pair of 8's, I think there is not much chance I have the SB beat on the turn here; loose passives almost never bet into a large field including a preflop raiser without at least a top pair or a premium draw (and the best draw also just got there). Getting a free showdown would be nice, but I would like a better chance at the best hand before that becomes a compelling factor (at this point, I'm not even planning to call a river bet from the SB). Also, since my hand looks so much like an overpair to my opponents right now, I don't think I gain any useful information when check raised which would allow me to fold a two pair or trips on the river.

By far the most compelling reason to bet the turn here is for value on my draw. With up to 14 outs to aces up or better, I only need 3 callers to get real value on my bet. However, I only have 4 opponents here (a couple of whom will probably bail out with their overcard or gutshot draws), and unless everyone calls with a straight draw, they are also likely holding a few of my outs when they do call. Also, anyone who made a straight or 2 pair (or decided to slowplay a set) is virtually certain to go for a check raise against my "obvious" overpair, which means the times I only have 8-11 outs I will most likely be playing for multiple bets against fewer opponents. Further, since checking here might induce a weak river bet for me to raise those times I do improve, I am not always giving up my turn action by checking. All in all, I think there are more reasons to check the turn here than there are to bet.

On the river, I was going for the overcalls (there were 2 players behind me with hands yet), plain and simple. Since I would expect EP to go for a check raise on the turn if he had a straight, I can still be beaten here, and SB's overcall seemed pretty likely. A raise isn't unreasonable here, but the risk of being both 3 bet by a better hand and losing the overcalls made me decide against it.

[Coilean]

Rick,

I addressed a lot of this in my results post, and I see skp already brought up most of my points. I don't think my preflop raise is a huge +EV play (in fact very few preflop plays that don't involve a high pocket pair are big plays, but I digress [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), but I certainly believe you have a positive situation here with a strong multiway hand (and possible the only ace) and the best position. I think we're on the same page with the flop play; I don't go for free card plays that often, as most players are aware enough to 3-bet strong hands when a draw is present on the flop, but the success of this play against loose passives is one of the reasons they make such profitable opponents. The turn is clearly debatable, but I don't think there's much chance I am stealing this pot from the best hand, and am probably going to be check raised too often to get value from a bet that needs almost all of my opponents to flat call with single pair hands for it to be a good one. On the river, I was going for the overcall, as you suspected. As always, your input is greatly appreciated; you've always been near the top of my "Watch List" (as have andy and skp, for that matter) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[J_V]

You are a Great White Shark eating the surfers in California. Very well played. If I played 1/10 hands as well I would be wealthy man.

[bobgreen]

Coilean, Ho Hum sure generated some hubbub.

Every one of your reasons for checking the turn and flat calling the river makes perfect sense. I'd play the river that way often and the turn too sometimes. But...

My favorite opponent bets when she thinks she is best and checks whenever she has any doubt. (She should also be about 5' 2", dark and fit.)

My most dreaded opponent pushes me hard, keeps me unsure and makes me pay lots to find out if I win.

Now, obviously you can't just bet and raise when you miss the board and hold some random crap (T8s for example [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), but here your heart draw on the turn and your reasonable chance of winning at the river, give you the opportunity to lower your center of gravity and push the lightweights around a little.

In this hand, betting the turn and raising the river seem ev positive but less ev positive than checking the turn and calling the river.

Over the long term however, I believe betting and raising are more ev positive. Having your opponents fear you is priceless.

[Coilean]

I think my opponents fear me because I raise a lot when I think they have weak hands, and bet a lot of weak hands on the river if I think there is much chance it is the best hand. I don't think raising and betting with a probable second best hand against a loose passive who likes to call down is the right spot to get overaggressive in. Somehow, I don't find it that scary when people overplay weak losing hands against me, I just start calling them down more often; it's a lot scarier if they pound me over the head with weak hands that beat me.

[bobgreen]

Coilean, thanks for responding.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think raising and betting with a probable second best hand against a loose passive who likes to call down is the right spot to get overaggressive in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree wholeheartedly and his liking to call down argues against your turn raise.

[ QUOTE ]
it's a lot scarier if they pound me over the head with weak hands that beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pair of eights that ends up 2-pair, trips, or a flush is "a weak hand that beat" him.

And raising with 3 eights on the river is pounding him over the head with "a weak hand that beats him".

So if you raise the turn and fail to improve, then you'll have to check behind on the river and suffer the loss of an extra big bet.

Is that worth more or less than the profit you make when you do improve plus the intimidation value you gain? (And I think you still gain intimidation with a turn raise even when you do check the river and lose the pot.)

Bob