Perfect free showdown raise... - Page 3

krishanleong · #21 08-30-2005, 08:29 AM

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2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.

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thats impressive that you have jeffw's game down to such a perfect science.

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5 He could be on a draw and check fold the river.

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Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I'm very protected by the turn pairing a card I could have.

Krishan

TStoneMBD · #22 08-30-2005, 08:41 AM

im not arguing that a worse hand will likely 3bet you here, but i am arguing that your use of the words "never" followed up with "ever." should be an insult to jeffw. you said this hand was not against jeffw, but against a generic tag. while you were playing the hand out it was a generic tag, but if jeffw did in fact play this hand then by saying that you will never be 3bet by a worse hand, ever, you are saying that jeffw is not capable of this.

as for my comment about why bothering to post the hand, i think that if you have a read that the tag will fold an 8 here with some frequency, then the play is likely the right one (of course there are other factors). fundamentally, i think that the play is flawed. i dont know how you want us to critique your hand if your line is based on a read. we cannot gauge the level of accuracy in your read. if you want us to tell you how frequent villain has to fold an eight here for this line to be profitable then that is more precise, yet difficult to answer, at least for me. i would really like to hear the thoughts from posters on what this % needs to be, because this information is extremely valuable, but unfortunately twoplustwo generally doesnt think about these frequencies nearly enough. however, if you read that villain will fold an 8 here just because he is a "generic tag" and not because you have been watching him play, then i disagree with you.

krishanleong · #23 08-30-2005, 08:50 AM

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should be an insult to jeffw.

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Lolomgbbq. Jeff, I apologise if I offended your poker skills.

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if you read that villain will fold an 8 here just because he is a "generic tag" and not because you have been watching him play, then i disagree with you.

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Yes, I think this is a good play against a generic TAG.

It's not just folding an 8. I will reiterate.

1. It's a safe play. I'm not getting 3-bet by worse hands so can safely fold to a 3-bet.
2. I might get better hands to fold. 66,77, and 8s.
3. I might charge a draw a bunch when a draw might have check folded the river.
4. I might get a weak draw to fold incorrectly (QT, 79)
5. My hand range up to the turn is pretty wide and I could have lots of hands that beat a pair of 8s exactly the way I played this hand.

Don't get hung up about folding an 8. There is more to this.

Krishan

einbert · #24 08-30-2005, 08:52 AM

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2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.

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With a read of "taggy 10/20 player" I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is way wrong.

ALL1N · #25 08-30-2005, 08:57 AM

I think you played this hand fine.

TStoneMBD · #26 08-30-2005, 08:58 AM

laugh out loud oh my god barbeque?

einbert · #27 08-30-2005, 08:59 AM

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Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I

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Maybe but that doesn't mean they would be right and even if it were spewing that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Turn semibluff three-bets happen at 10/20, from players who I have read as "taggy" and from players who I have read as TAG or LAG.

In addition, if you make these free showdown plays a lot and often fold to the three-bet, players at 10/20 catch on from what I've seen. The value of getting you to fold the best hand in this pot here is great, and if they have that read and are really thinking I don't see why they wouldn't three-bet you here with a draw.

Anyway to try to actually touch on the decision, I think a call is better. I will have to do the math to try to back this up.

krishanleong · #28 08-30-2005, 08:59 AM

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laugh out loud oh my god barbeque?

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It was in a thread yesterday. I had to get it out of my system.

Krishan

krishanleong · #29 08-30-2005, 09:00 AM

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Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I

Maybe but that doesn't mean they would be right and even if it were spewing that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

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It doesn't happen often enough that the benefits of a turn raise don't outweight a call. And I think it happens very close to 0% of the time.

Krishan

krishanleong · #30 08-30-2005, 09:03 AM

Jeff,

We are in a unique position to see thoughts and actions from Villian and Hero's perspective. Can you answer a couple questions?

Would you ever 3-bet here with a worse hand than 55?

What is your hand range? I'm guessing any pair, gutshot, openender, flushdraw and a small number of complete bluffs. Is this about right?

Are you cring 66, 77 on the flop?

If you do, do you lay them down to my turn raise?

Thanks,

Krishan