have you guys seen this hand????

[Ortho]

Here's Mason's review of the book that these problems come from, if anyone cares. I have read this book, and believe that there is a lot of good advice in it, but am really trying to examine their recommendations to determine if each does not have me playing too timidly in many low limit situations.

[ QUOTE ]
Middle Limit Holdem Poker (6 + or - 2) by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier. This is a very extensive and detailed text on how to play hold ’em. As the title says, it is designed for middle-limit play (which usually means $10-$20 thru $30-$60) where many tough players can be found, but where significant money can be won by experts. The book includes discussions on how to play in many situations and over 400 hand problems.

For those of you who already have a pretty good understanding of how to play well, you may find this book extremely valuable. The hand problems will essentially be good practice away from the table, and you can debate with the authors as to whether their solutions and advice are the best strategies to follow, and this debate should prove quite valuable.

Unfortunately, that’s also the difficulty with this text. Much of their advice, and answers they give to the sample problems, I find somewhat questionable. For instance, while they seem to be too tight in many spots, they call too many raises in my opinion before the flop. Usually these are hands that I would fold, but sometimes they are hands that I feel should be reraised. For example, I consider it to be routine strategy to reraise an early or middle position player with ace-king. But as you read the hand problems, you will notice that they almost always call here. Another example is their play out of the big blind. Here they state: “Being half way in is a strong incentive to call a single raise from your big blind. Here is how to play against a raise that is not a steal raise. Call with any pair or a suited ace. Call with an A-K, A-Q, A-J, A-T, K-Q, K-J, K-T, Q-J, Q-T, and J-T.” My opinion is that if you routinely call a legitimate raise with many of these hands, and you are against only one or two players, it should prove expensive, especially in tougher games.

Other problems include an over-fixation on avoiding draws that aren’t to the nuts, ignoring implied odds with two cards to come, seemingly unaware that check raising is a necessary tool in limit play, always assuming that your opponents have exactly what they are suppose to have, and the examples don’t usually indicate what your opponent might be putting you on.

There is one problem with their advice I find a little more troublesome, and it made this book very difficult to rate. By my count there are just over 100 hands where the authors say to fold. I question many of these folds. There are also a fair number of hands where the authors say to call where I consider raising a reasonable alternative. Now when I question, it doesn’t mean that Ciaffone and Brier have it wrong, or even that their advice is wrong the majority of the time (in these spots). But it does mean, to me, that their propensity to constantly attempt to save bets, especially when the pots are large, could eventually cause those who follow this advice some problems.

Put another way, if you are unknown to your opponents and play like they describe, you will probably have no difficulty. But as you become known, some of your opponents should begin to exploit this flaw, and your ability to win should begin to fall off. In fact, if and when I feel someone plays as the authors describe, I’ll work an extra bet or raise in every now and then. If enough people begin to do this, and this should eventually happen to a regular player, some pots that should be yours will be taken away from you, and your overall results should deteriorate.

So this brings us to the rating. If you understand this flaw and are able to work around it, this book is much better than a 6 and has a great deal of value. If on the other hand, you are relatively new to poker, or just don’t grasp the flaw very well, a 6 is being generous.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's Mason's review of the book that these problems come from, if anyone cares. I have read this book, and believe that there is a lot of good advice in it, but am really trying to examine their recommendations to determine if each does not have me playing too timidly in many low limit situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say if you're following the books advice in low-limit you're probably being too tight, based upon the two questions (which is admittedly too small of a sample) we've seen. But overall, I wouldn't expect that the mid-limits (up to 30/60, I still can't get over that) would play the same at low-limits.

Remember the mantra in SSH of the typical player... players that see too many flops and hold onto them for too long. I don't think that the typical player at the mid-limits is the same as the low-micro limits.

KO

[Ortho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's Mason's review of the book that these problems come from, if anyone cares. I have read this book, and believe that there is a lot of good advice in it, but am really trying to examine their recommendations to determine if each does not have me playing too timidly in many low limit situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say if you're following the books advice in low-limit you're probably being too tight, based upon the two questions (which is admittedly too small of a sample) we've seen. But overall, I wouldn't expect that the mid-limits (up to 30/60, I still can't get over that) would play the same at low-limits.

Remember the mantra in SSH of the typical player... players that see too many flops and hold onto them for too long. I don't think that the typical player at the mid-limits is the same as the low-micro limits.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]



Yes. Where my problems are in moving up to tighter games has to do with making laydowns. Not big laydowns, like SSH rightly cautions against, but routine laydowns, like when you bet your AK on flop and turn and get called and have to decide whether to check/fold or check/call the river, or when your TPMK gets check-raised on the turn. This book counsels laying down in a lot of spots like this, but I don't like it quite enough. To be fair, I think personally that this is a weak-spot for SSH. SSH revolutionised my game, but it got me into such a "value bet/raise or call down" mentality that I take too many hands to the river against tight opponents and it is this problem that I've been (perhaps unsuccessfully) looking at a lot of other books, including this one for advice.

If anyone has any advice on this topic, I'd enjoy hearing it. Lurking in the SS forum is a good idea and has helped.

[Fishlips_Jones]

We don't know what the texture of the game is.

Tight games will occasionally see a flop with 7 players, and loose games will occasionally be folded to the button.

Fishlips