Bush Privately Chides Rumsfeld

[sam h]

I agree he should sack Rumsfeld. But so much of the administration's PR strategy has revolved around not admitting that things have gone drastically wrong in Iraq that I doubt such a move is likely, especially given the upcoming election.

I also don't know whether or not Bush or others in the White House were made aware of the prisoner abuse longer ago than the administration is letting on.

On a side note, it was blatantly obvious that Rumsfeld was lying when McCain asked him yesterday who and what agency was in charge of the prisoner interrogations and he said he didn't know and was trying to find out. Of course he knows.

[Cyrus]

"Keeping Rumsfeld around and "spinning" events gives those [war's opponents] a stronger position."

As long as war's supporters treat these things in the context of "spin" and take decisions on the basis of "how it will play" with people, there is no hope for improving American strategy in Iraq.

The American strategy needs a serious overhaul, as pro-war Democrats are actively proposing. However all such suggestions are all too quickly dismissed as "partisan politics" by the GOP,. Well, as Adios, says the current situation only helps politically the war's and the GOP's opponents. If the war's opponents too were thinking along the lines of "spin", they would keep mum and let events carry the GOP to its November doom.

The American electorate is still more concerned about the economy and unemployment, than about Iraq, where about half of them dispute the very worthiness of the war itself, and more than 60% believe that Bush is making a mess of it, even. And these beliefs carry over to the American electorate's view of the two Presidential candidates, on whom right now (before the real race has begun) they are about evenly split.

What I'm trying to say is that, even for petty, partisan reasons, it would be advisable for the current American administration to admit its many mistakes and omissions, reach out to the rest of America's allies (and not just the "coalition") and change course in Iraq. Firing Rumsfeld is window dressing and won't accomplish anything down the road.

But this looks like being a very tall order for Dubya.

[Cyrus]

Everybody and his GOP-voting cousin knew that Rummie was going to lie and weasel his way through question time in Congress. So that particular sight, of him lying and lying again, was not susprising.

But it was susprising to see the once cocky and arrogant Department of Defense Secretary being asked a question about what and when he knew about the abuse, and turning to Myers and asking him in turn, "Dick, did you know?", getting a "No", and then Rummie turning behind to others in uniform and asking them the same question, "Anybody of you knew?". Every time a leader does that, it shows that he is no longer a leader; he is a wuss, trying to cover his ass by inviting his subordinates into the problem.

And, rest assured, the subordinates (the armed forces, in this case) can tell when the leader lets them down. So much for inspired leadership.

(The very sight of all those generals that Rummie brought along with him is indicative of the man's mind : Instead of coming alone --the invitation by the Committee was for him personally-- he asks that the brass accompany him. To show that this is about the U.S. Army as a whole --so you better show respect, Congressmen!-- and to show he is not alone in this. Like I said, what a wuss.)

[ACPlayer]

I dont want a stronger position. This is not about my winning an argument that I dont want to win (even though I think I am right), I dont even want to have this argument.

This is the second cabinet level official of this "administration" that has gotten up infront of congress and effectively admitted incompetent management. Both Rumsfeld and Condie knew there was information out there indicating problems (one prior to 9/11 and one for the past 2 years -- starting with the approach Gitmo). The top national security people are unable to put 2+2 together and do the right things to protect our country, its people and its reputation. Both these officials are more worried about how the administration looks than doing the right thing!

The situation is utterly horrible.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
ACPlayer: "The situation is utterly horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it seems like a big deal all right. Actually though, it's a lot closer to a "tempest in a teapot" than "utterly horrible". (A better definition of "utterly horrible" = what the Iraqis had to endure under Saddam Hussein).

So some soldiers were a$$h*l@s, they will be punished. So they used terrible judgment...nobody said they were all geniuses. So management isn't perfect in the US military...where is it perfect? An investigation commenced months ago. So the Arabs are hollering bloody murder--but in their countries, prisoners are actually tortured, not just humiliated, and tortured far worse, even tortured to death. Again no comparison. In Iraq itself this was kid stuff compared to the tortures that went on regularly at Abu Ghraib under Saddam's regime.

Typical world for ya: gets all upset about the relatively small stuff but tries to ignore the really heavy stuff.

This stuff was certainly less horrible than the murders and corpse-burnings of 4 Americans recently in Fallujah. Which, though, received the most worldwide press? Which did the world condemn more strongly? Which pictures did the press choose to display most? Which did the Arabs choose to show show the most outrage against? Anyone getting the idea that public opinion sucks, that we can't win in the arena of public opinion no matter what?

So: fire and/or prosecute those responsible. Then say "sorry" FOR THE LAST TIME and get back to business.

[ACPlayer]

You and Gamblor, cant seem to have any kind of honest self evaluation without characterizing the other guy. I take it you routinely play J-8 offsuit because the other guy plays it and wins and dont play A-A because the other guy played it and lost!

We have two managers who completely missed the boat (Rumsfeld more than Condi, but yes she fell down on the job too). We are at war and the senior people charged with managing our security are F'ing up, costing lives and credibility and you are offering up excuses that dont make a whit of difference in this analysis.

Talked about a closed mind. I really did expect a bit better (not much, but a bit).

[jdl22]

Why does Saddam torturing his people make it acceptable that we commit war crimes?

[MMMMMM]

It DOESN'T; but the responses of the public, the press and the world shows that the focus of public opinion is improperly weighted.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does Saddam torturing his people make it acceptable that we commit war crimes?

[/ QUOTE ]


It DOESN'T; but the relative responses of the public, the press and the world shows that the focus of public opinion is improperly weighted.

[MMMMMM]

Look, the fact that there are opposing sides in the conflict makes it necessary to characterize the other guy and compare appropriately even when doing a critical self-evaluation.

Take an overly simplified example: Mike Tyson is boxing Evander Holyfield. Holyfield is stiff-arming him which isn't perfectly sportsmanlike behavior, but it is nothing like Tyson's response of biting his ear off. Let's even imagine Holyfield did something a bit worse like a rabbit punch or hitting below the belt. You still can't fairly focus most of the criticism on Holyfield even if he is your guy, because there is a battle going on. If events took place in a vacuum that would be different, but they don't. When there is conflict between two sides, actions must be judged relatively.

If Holyfield had to fight under conditions where the referees allowed Tyson to bite him, but he could only punch Tyson (including rabbit punches), and the public threw more scorn on Holyfiield for his rabbit punches than for Tyson's ear chompings, that wouldn't be right, would it? Yet that is not a far off parallel from what is occurring in the evaluation of this scenario in Iraq and in the public outcry over it. And even more so if Tyson's camp regularly allowed him to bite his own sparring partners, but that same camp hollered bloody murder when Holyfield rabbit punched Tyson.

Now none of that makes it right for Holyfield to rabbit punch Tyson. But if that becomes a greater focus than Tyson's biting off an ear, then something is wrong with world opinion and the way most people are looking at things.