When good boats go bad.

[slavic]

I don't know I made up plenty of missed bets for him [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[bernie]

not sure why some think your call was even marginal. J5o is a crap hand.

im wondering what you were hoping to flop? if you hit a J, you can easily be outkicked, and any draw is a weak draw. 2 pair is about 48-1...good luck collecting that and winning if someone gives you that much action.

does this help with why, for even 1/2 a bet it's a fold? suited id call, no problem, but not this cheese.

seems youre looking at the value of the chips instead of the form of a unit. since it was only a .25, why not call this in MP also?

not trying to bust balls, but if you dont have discipline, (unless ya did it for sh*ts and giggles which is fun to do at times), on the small tables, youll let monetary meaning come into play in other limits too. which will come affect you in different ways. something to watch for. you explained it as a monetary reason.

b

[Fitz]

I don't mean to be overly harsh, but I believe you got exactly what you deserved for playing that hand in the first place. It is the idea of "only half a bet" that gets so many players in trouble. A negative EV play is a negative EV play, and J5o is has a negative EV. Punish lesser players with good hands; don't start making reaches like this. They will only get you into trouble.

Good luck,

[hutz]

<ahem> Thanks for your comments, bernie, but I was the player with the set and don't completely agree with your view of my play. I limped after three other uber-loose limpers in MP with 88 (i.e., very low likelihood of buying the button with a raise), open bet my set on the flop when it was checked to me in second-to-last position, called when the flush card hit and the SB open bet into at least two other players out of the blue on the turn, and then raised/capped the river when my full house hit. How on Earth did I miss any more than possibly one bet on the turn and how can you say I played "pretty bad"? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because of the way the facts were misstated in the original post, but if you still believe the hand was misplayed, I'm curious to receive a fuller explanation of how you believe it could have been played more optimally.

[Bob T.]

There is a huge difference between how you describe the play of the hand, and how the original poster describes it. I think that bernie was taking issue with your smooth call on the flop, which didn't occur. I didn't like that play either, but since you didn't make it, don't worry about it.

[bernie]

i based my reply on the EP having the 88, as in the post. i think youd agree that if you were in that spot, with that hand, it wouldve been a misplay.

but since the hand is totally screwed up now, and no one knows who was where or what the action is, i cant comment on how you actually played the hand.

completely blown thread...

b

[bernie]

actually if i had the set in EP, id have bet out hoping to get raised.

b

[Louie Landale]

I guess I didn't say the "backwards" thing right. I meant it hurts analsys if you know the exact outcome. "Should I raise?" gets quite different answers when you know, for example, that are going to lose the showdown.

As for remembering what's happened so far: its tough at first. Try keeping track of the player who was the aggressor on each round. Basically, hands play MUCH differently if there has been two aggressors in the pot rather than just one.

In the "going for the overcall" example: if you 3-bet you are very likely going to lose the caller and are very likely to get a call from the 2-bettor. You are likely to get 4-bet if you are beat. You are basically risking 2 additional bets (the 3rd and 4th) for very little gain. Its a no-brainer call if you KNOW the callers will call again. The ballance act comes in calculating your chances of being beat plus the chances of getting raised if beat times two; and comparing that to the chances the caller does NOT make the overcall. Since players will typically call one more time going for the over-call is pretty routine.

"Going for the overcall" is a well documented (with a little research, you know where), relatively easy concept to grasp (with a little work), easy to recognize (with a little practice), often makes a HUGE difference in the EV of a hand, and comes up very often in loose games (with multi-player show-downs). Its well worth investigating for beginners.

This situation, keep in mind, is completely different if its NOT the last betting round. Then you generally RAISE because you WANT the caller to fold (or at least call a double bet).

- Louie