who's right?

[Homer]

No, it's not likely. I was just saying that it isn't quite as cut and dried as I made it seem, as there could be a few more things that effect the odds.

-- Homer

[rkiray]

Yeah, I still don't like the play but you guys have convinced me it was much closer than I thought and is probably at least a good way to mix up how you play draws sometimes.

[bernie]

youre taking into account that you have a higher flush draw too. he doesnt know that.

if he thinks that his flush will be good if he hits it, and he has 3 callers, and he thinks he has 9 outs, hell even 7 outs, he's making a +EV play here. notice i said IF his flush is good if it hits. he has plenty of odds to see the river with this. unless the board pairs. look at it from his perspective. if he's a solid player, it will be tougher to put him on a hand when he 3 bets the flop again when a draw is there too. as his range is a little wider.

flush over flush also isnt that common. primarily because when most good players have a flush they have the high end of it. so they wont be subject of that kind of beat too often. usually, if you make a flush with 3 on the board, youre good.

it also sounds like you misread his hand. would it matter if he had a higher flush than yours, and it hit? then how would the post sound?

his raise isnt intended to get anyone out. it's intended to keep them in and build the pot bigger. maybe, MAYBE get a higher flush card out who may have a pair and a B-door flush.

this play isnt as horrible as you may think.

that said, ive jammed flushes like this. and ive called with em here too. i much prefer to jam higher flushes obviously, but once in awhile.

btw...the one who's implied odds are going to crap are yours. let's say you know he'd 3 bet the flop here ahead of time. it is possible to make this read sometimes. with that read, youd be coldcalling at least 3 bets here on your initial call. with that in mind, id call it. but i wouldnt like it very much.
especially if i knew one of the players could jam a draw like this and i could be drawing dead for the flush.

youd be drawing calling 3 bets to win 12. you can count on a bet on the turn from one of them so your odds at this point figure to 1 card coming. if your figuring 2 cards to go, where your drawing odds are better, figure it about 5-16. or just over 3-1. you still have the odds to call for your flush on the flop figuring this, but you still have to take into account whether it may be good or not.

in hindsight his play wasnt that good, but in his perspective, it's not that bad a play.

b

[bernie]

"If he does the RRs is a really bad play IMHO."

this line, and your post above make me wonder if you only 3 bet if you have the goods or only if you have the absolute nut draw. you dont have to have a made hand to jam a pot. there are times you can jam on the turn, knowing youre beat. even if they turned their hands face up, and it would still be +EV. wait til ya run into one of those types of hands.

knowing when to jam a draw, even less than nut draws, can make alot of chips. though id be a little careful of the lower value flush or str8 draws.

b

[rkiray]

Yeah, I'm somewhat conservative about jamming pots. I won't do it unless I think I have some kind of a edge. First to act on the next two rounds with a seven high flush draw and a pot that is already so big that I'm pretty sure everyone is in to the end on doesn't show any edge to me. If it was an Ace high draw I would to it. If I was on the button and there were players between me and the originally raiser who I might force out I would do it. If I thought the other players were loose raisers I would do it. Note that I stated this was a slightly tougher than normal game so I didn't think either of these guys were loose. Actually by far the most pot jamming I do is in Colorado 5/5 games where there are lots of maniacs. I love to sit on the immediate left of these guys and jam pots with them when I have good hands.

BTW the pot was definitely big enough that everyone chased to the end. Rags on both turn and river. Turn mp bet everyone called. River was checked all the way. mp won with a pair of kings.

[rkiray]

you wrote :

youre taking into account that you have a higher flush draw too. he doesnt know that.

No I'm not.

you wrote :

flush over flush also isnt that common. primarily because when most good players have a flush they have the high end of it. so they wont be subject of that kind of beat too often. usually, if you make a flush with 3 on the board, youre good.

This is true but it's not the case here. If he had a high flush draw I would have never written the post. He plays tight so I'm sure he wouldn't have been in this hand if he didn't get a free flop in the big blind. Therefore the "regular" case of not losing to flush over flush doesn't apply this time. He should be much more worried about a biggger flush with these cards. Also all four of the people left in the pot were playing solid, no one was getting out of line. As Homer pointed out with two players cold calling a raise he should have at least considered a higher flush draw. This is especially true since both of us were tighter than normal on-line players.

But I have also stated elsewhere that this thread has convinced me that the play was much better than I thought. If nothing else it's a good way to mix up how you play draws (assuming he doesn't do it every time, and I don't think he does).

[J.R.]

flush over flush also isnt that common

Just to expand, you're right. This is an overused phrase. Yes it is true in general, but when you're in a multiway pot, a two flush is on the board and decent players are jamming, "general" rules and guidelines need to give way to the possibilities presented by specific hand in question.

[Nottom]

The fact that you have a bigger flush draw here is really pretty much irrelevant since he certainly doesn't know that. He feels that he has 9 outs to win this thing and is getting about 2:1 odds of hitting it by the river, so anytime he gets 3 people calling his bets thats +EV.

I really don't think hes too worried about the guy re-raising, since the 2 others cold-called once so why wouldn't they do it again. Basically I think this is a fine play. I also think I would have gone ahead and capped this if I were you for the same reason.

[Nottom]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If I was on the button and there were players between me and the originally raiser who I might force out I would do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are making this sort of play for this reason with a flush draw on a regular basis, you are losing money.

[rkiray]

I did make a mistake here. The way I tend to think about draws is in terms of making them on the next card. So for a flush draw I need 4:1 to call adjusted up or down as my best estimate for implied odds allows. What I overlooked here was the pot was already so big that I (and probably eveyone else) are going to the river. Therfore I should have been thinking in terms of 2:1 and yes I should have capped it (the first call to try to keep people in I believe is correct).