How Does Sklansky Explain the Existence of Israel

[sexdrugsmoney]

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I've been to Israel and saw an extraordinary thing.

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benkahuna, I have had the feeling that you are Jewish because of your avoidance of the tetragrammaton even in English, and I have also wondered if perhaps your username "benkahuna" means "Son of kahuna". (Though to my knowledge kahuna isn't a Jewish name. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

Now I read you've been to Israel, I feel I may be correct.

However, if you don't wish to state your beliefs and/or your ethnicity (if by chance you are a non practicing Jew) that's understandable, and I won't bring it up again.

Although if your'e comfortable disclosing this information, I'd love to know what type of Judaism you practice, and whether you had a Jewish education or not.

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An Israeli was asked, "Why go to Ben Yahuda square when it has been bombed in the past and is a big public place, thus a prime target for bombings?" The Israeli responded, "Because if I don't, they win."

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This has been a Jewish trait since Genesis apparently, and is the reason the Jews are still with us today. No other group of people have been through as much as the Jewish people have, it truly is against all odds to the point where one should keep an open mind in regards to whether their claims as God's "chosen people" has some ground.

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Israel's existence is not a simple thing and I think you have to look at many factors, not just one, as to why it exists. I do think it falls short of a miracle too. Too many other explanations.

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Just a little tidbit of info, Jews and Israel play a significant part in the Book of Revelations, especially Har-megiddo where a particularly bloody and large final battle is to take place. (hence the word 'Armageddon')

Ofcourse, this is just one reason why the Book of Revelations has had many different viewpoints since it was written and why many people have either rejected it - not being able to understand it, or embraced it as close to hand through pure fear and/or faith, and not reason.

In actually the Book of Revelations (using reason) could not have been fulfilled until at least there two critera were met:

1) Israel as a nation.
2) Worldwide EFT economic system.

But this topic is extremely deep and I don't want to hijack a thread. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
SDM

[benkahuna]

My grandfather was Jewish so I guess I'm diluted--good enough to expatriote to Israel or die in a Holocaust death camp, not enough for the standard definition of having a Jewish mother or being a convert. I started writing G-d out of courtesy to Jewish friends though I have no religious investment in it. I'm a pretty standard agnostic.

I'd have to agree the Jewish people have done well despite many struggles. I'm not sure it's fair to say that they've been through the most, but it certainly hasn't been an easy 2200 years or so.

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No other group of people have been through as much as the Jewish people have

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Oh dear.

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one should keep an open mind in regards to whether their claims as God's "chosen people" has some ground.

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This could be argued the other way too. But if we're using racial suffering as barometer for God's love, perhaps the Rastafarians are the chosen people?

[sexdrugsmoney]

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My grandfather was Jewish so I guess I'm diluted--good enough to expatriote to Israel or die in a Holocaust death camp, not enough for the standard definition of having a Jewish mother or being a convert.

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Just curious as to how Israel "defines" one (excuse the 'clinical' Governmental term) if they do not have a Jewish mother?

Does the Israeli government use terms like "Jew" and "Gentile" to classify it's citizens, and if so is it detailed? (such as "Jewish Grandfather" or "Arab", "Egyptian" etc etc)

I know Columbia used to at one point use the Spanish way of classifying all the different race types of Latin America and even go so far on some government documents to report hue of skin color!

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I started writing G-d out of courtesy to Jewish friends though I have no religious investment in it. I'm a pretty standard agnostic.

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Living in Israel and having Jewish blood, you haven't been tempted at some point in your life to convert to Judaism (if you were not raised it, and then subsequently moved away from it at a later age) if not for identity reasons but for culture and the religion? (I'm assuming you've read the Torah)

And since you write and speak with your Jewish friends, out of interest are any of them Samaritans? (I would imagine their unique perspective on Judaism would make for interesting discussion)

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I'd have to agree the Jewish people have done well despite many struggles. I'm not sure it's fair to say that they've been through the most, but it certainly hasn't been an easy 2200 years or so.

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Q. I thought the Jewish people begun with Abraham (or at least Isaac) which according to a literal reading of the Bible puts Abraham IIRC approximately 5000 years ago at the least, yet you say 2200 years, which would make it 195BCE - which precedes the Hasmonean dynasty by 50 years or so.

Is there some date there that Jews see as their "official" beginning point that I am ignorant of?

Cheers,
SDM

[sexdrugsmoney]

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No other group of people have been through as much as the Jewish people have

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Oh dear.

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Oh dear what?

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one should keep an open mind in regards to whether their claims as God's "chosen people" has some ground.

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This could be argued the other way too. But if we're using racial suffering as barometer for God's love, perhaps the Rastafarians are the chosen people?

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I've gotta hear this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Siegmund]

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Against all odds Israel exists as a nation. What's the price on this?

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Disclaimer: the following is intended as an interpretation of the political climate up to the 1950s, NOT a claim about how Jews or Indians or anyone else deserve to be treated.

Against all odds? No. The creation of Israel is not surprising at all. I'd even call it an obvious step. European countries have been suspicious of Jews as neighbors for a thousand years, and taking turns driving them away by various means.

In the USA, we progressed from shooting Indians on sight, to rounding them up and forcing them onto reservations, to eventually giving them some kind of autonomy and self-government while still keeping them at arm's length from the mainstream of our culture.

Jews got burned at the stake by the Inquisition, driven from all but the most inhospitable corners of Russia by the pogroms, got forced into ghettos, and then got openly slaughtered in concentration camps. All means to the same end, all expressions of the same idea: "Get them out of my neighborhood... I don't care how you do it."

Eventually the old adage about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar took hold. So, we found a particularly desolate and unihabitable chunk of the Middle East that no sane person would want to live in, took advantage of some 3000-year-old legends about the area, and made it sound like we were doing the Jews a big favour by putting them on the reservation. We even put big fake smiles on our faces and said "we feel bad for how you were treated by the mean old Germans. We'd like to give you some free land and a one-way ticket to your new home, to show you how much we care." Riiiight.

A lot of people and a lot of governments, secretly or openly, wanted the new state of Israel to fail, wanted to let the Arabs finish Hitler's work without bloodying European hands. As it turned out, we didn't sit back and allow that to happen.

It remains to be seen whether Israel's continued existence indicates a progressively more tolerant attitude toward Jews, or just happens to suit the selfish needs of certain western countries to prop them up.

I don't believe there is a God. But I understand that it is assumed that God created all man.

Are you seriously implying that God favors one race/people over others? That He created Jews as superior human beings? Is that why they deserve their own country at all cost? I believe there used to be a German word for that...

" but he has got to belive that this is indeed a miracle--a modern day miracle..."


"Some Ultra Orthodox Jews were so impressed by the incredibly rapid success of the 6 Day War that they considered it a miracle and changed their view on Israel as a modern nation toward support of it as they felt G-d had shown his approval. They seemed to view the military victory as something of a miracle."

"it truly is against all odds to the point where one should keep an open mind in regards to whether their claims as God's "chosen people" has some ground."


Oy Vah. How to respond to claims like these. How can anyone claim that God interferes in the day to day affairs of man, or specificaly the Jews? I mean, where the hell was he in the 30's/40's?