$11 - lay down TPTK? - Page 2

45suited · #11 07-19-2005, 03:28 PM

Even on 11s, guys can actually pick up hands or hit flops.

You have TPTK on a flop that is extremely draw heavy that alot of players liked. There's also players left to act even if you don't lay down. So many possible hands are either way, way ahead or have great draws against our hand. Easy fold even on an 11.

dinero2433 · #12 07-19-2005, 03:29 PM

Reading some of these replies, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills... But here's what I would have done:

PF - raise to 3x the big blind - AQo is a pretty good hand, and I want to fire out a raise to define it. I'm probably folding to a big reraise, depending on what you know about the player.

But given you acted as you did PF, I would still bet out at this flop. You have top pair top kicker - why would you want to give flush and straight draws a free card? Why wouldn't you try and take command of this pot until you are given reason to reconsider? I think a 1/2 to 2/3 pot sized bet is in order. If the PF raiser fires back at you after you bet out, it might be a good bet that he's not afraid of your queen, at which point you had better fold.

As you mentioned, 10+1 players will call with hands a lot worse than your AQ. And the PF raiser could have anything halfway decent - AJs, JJ-77, and plenty of other hands that you potentially beat. In my opinion, this hand needs to be played much more aggressively from start to finish.

liucipher · #13 07-19-2005, 03:32 PM

I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given the amount in the pot and my irritation at folding the best hand in a big pot. I will cede that's probably -EV.

But preflop? Come on, fold to a t40 reraise to a bunch of limpers?

45suited · #14 07-19-2005, 03:37 PM

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But preflop? Come on, fold to a t40 reraise to a bunch of limpers?

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Well then you wouldn't like my original answer, which I left out because it didn't address the actual question of the OP. I would fold AQo UTG+1 in level 1. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

And somehow, I had an ROI in the 30s on the 11s. Just a matter of personal preference. I like hands that play themselves on level 1, especially if I'm going to play them from EP. AQo isn't one of those hands.

durron597 · #15 07-19-2005, 03:37 PM

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I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given

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You wouldn't have been dumb. THIS IS AN 11. I've seen both of the allin players have two NAKED flush draws so many timse I can't count.

Yes, bad players can pick up hands. But come on guys, folding in an 11 is overthinking yourself. (and trust me, if anyone has experience with overthinking themselves it's me).

Raiser · #16 07-19-2005, 03:44 PM

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I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given

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You wouldn't have been dumb. THIS IS AN 11. I've seen both of the allin players have two NAKED flush draws so many timse I can't count.

Yes, bad players can pick up hands. But come on guys, folding in an 11 is overthinking yourself. (and trust me, if anyone has experience with overthinking themselves it's me).

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I really disagree with this. I certainly think it's possible that we are ahead, but I don't think it's likely given the action.

Do you really think we are ahead enough of the time to make this a good call?

Winwood · #17 07-19-2005, 03:44 PM

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This is an $11.

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I think sometimes people don't give enough credit to 11 players. I don't know about anyone else (and I'm not much of a judge) - but normally there's at least 1 or 2 other players at the table who seem to know what they're doing.

Sometimes you've got to act like everyone's not a complete idiot. I'm not saying this is one of those times...but sometimes

liucipher · #18 07-19-2005, 04:02 PM

I break even at the $11s despite being able to beat the $6s with the higher vig. This is probably due to the fact that 95% of the people at $6s are donks vs. only 85% at the $11s.

I agree this hand is ugly given the action. But one of the glories of an $11 is that variance will not force you to release your car. You may be ahead, you may be behind. My guess at an $11 is that the times you're ahead outnumber the times you're behind.

For 45suited, and anybody with carpal/tunnel under their avatar, they can most likely play well enough that such a small +EV move is unnecessary.

For me, I have a bankroll but low skill, so I take whatever +EV situations I can get.

Likewise 45suited, I think folding this preflop is incredibly weak/tight. But as I observed, if your play in level 4+ is good (vs. mine which is poor), it's probably smart.

Winwood · #19 07-19-2005, 04:16 PM

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PF - raise to 3x the big blind - AQo is a pretty good hand, and I want to fire out a raise to define it. I'm probably folding to a big reraise, depending on what you know about the player.

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I used to do this, then I started limping, and now I think I'm actually gonna start folding AQo. It is a good hand, but I'm starting to think, for me, its not good enough in such early position level 1. Like another poster said, AQo doesn't exactly play itself.

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But given you acted as you did PF, I would still bet out at this flop. You have top pair top kicker - why would you want to give flush and straight draws a free card? Why wouldn't you try and take command of this pot until you are given reason to reconsider? I think a 1/2 to 2/3 pot sized bet is in order. If the PF raiser fires back at you after you bet out, it might be a good bet that he's not afraid of your queen, at which point you had better fold.

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My thinking was, with the PF action, I'd find out soon enough where I was. Plus, any sensible size bet into that pot is gonna be >20% of my stack. I sure don't like laying that down to a raise. Whaddaya think? You're right though, giving a free card would have been a disaster.

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As you mentioned, 10+1 players will call with hands a lot worse than your AQ. And the PF raiser could have anything halfway decent - AJs, JJ-77, and plenty of other hands that you potentially beat. In my opinion, this hand needs to be played much more aggressively from start to finish.

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It certainly wasn't played aggressively, no argument there.

Winwood · #20 07-19-2005, 04:24 PM

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For 45suited, and anybody with carpal/tunnel under their avatar, they can most likely play well enough that such a small +EV move is unnecessary.

For me, I have a bankroll but low skill, so I take whatever +EV situations I can get.

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Its funny, but I've always thought the exact opposite. Good players see and make the most of every singe small +EV situation. As a beginner I don't worry about seeing or giving up these tiny edges and instead concentrate on the big stuff - like tight play preflop and overall aggressiveness.

I'm just saying though

Winwood
Who is starting to feel out of his depth