push or fold under 10 bb's rule

[Irieguy]

Nice post.

Irieguy

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont necessarily do it anymore, because with many players it is obvious what you are doing. i will either calibrate it with what will get players to fold or will just make a standard raise or vary the raises depending on what i have been doing in the game. just mix it up because if you go all in four times with playable hands you will be called at least once and players will be lying in wait to trap you.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

this is one hundred percent true, IMO. one reason i stopped doing it was that often you can have a situation where if there are four players left all four will have less than 10BB. so you dont need to push to get players to fold.

Pat

[Unparagoned]

well, that basically sounds like what I would have wanted to say...

[ChrisV]

This is mixed up thinking. The reason you push with <10BB is mostly not because that's what it takes to get people to fold. It's because folding to a reraise loses chips compared to calling the reraise, versus typical reraising hands. That being the case, it doesn't matter how much more likely people are to fold to an allin - even if it's 0.1% of the time, you still might as well push.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I can't believe that you are making me do math. I knew I should have just said "10xBB doesn't always apply" and just end it. Now I'm fumbling around in PokerStove and Excel trying to figure this out. I might just make a bad beat post out of spite.

[ilya]

Couple questions...

[ QUOTE ]

So total push equity is .4 * 2200 + .36103 * 6200 = 2223 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this ".4 * 2200"??

[ QUOTE ]

- Versus me, raising to 1000 and calling my push has better equity than just pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed that the BB would always fold and ran the EV calculations. I'm getting +410 for pushing and +376 for raising & calling the re-raise. So how can raising & calling have more equity?

[ QUOTE ]
Note that versus a less aggressive player, say someone who only pushes with my call hands above, there's no difference between pushing and raising 1000 and calling the push (for obvious reasons) but both are still worse than pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is worse than pushing? Do you mean "better than raising & folding to a re-raise"?

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
What is this ".4 * 2200"??

[/ QUOTE ]

The hands I'd fold if he pushed, but raise if he didnt push, amount to 40% of all the hands I'd push. 2200 is because as stated I'm assuming the equity he has against BB if I fold is only +300, due to BB calling a percentage of the time. Probably a pessimistic estimate, but I couldn't be bothered running the numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
I assumed that the BB would always fold and ran the EV calculations. I'm getting +410 for pushing and +376 for raising & calling the re-raise. So how can raising & calling have more equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your numbers are probably correct if you make that assumption about BB. BB complicates things because sometimes he calls when you and SB both push as well. I think assuming he always hands you the blinds is pretty generous though.

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing is worse than pushing? Do you mean "better than raising & folding to a re-raise"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what that was supposed to say. But yeah, that's what I meant. I'm posting from work and alt-tabbing away when anyone walks past so none of this is guaranteed to make sense :P

[ilya]

Thanks Chris.

I'm still confused about the ".4*2200." I understand the part about you folding 40% of the hands you would have reraised with, but not the "2200" bit. Hero starts hand with 2900 chips, gains 300 from BB, and ends up with 2200? Did you mean to say 3200?

You're right, it's too much to assume that the BB will always fold. Matter of fact, he'll call/re-raise more when Hero pushes, since SB will get out of the way more often.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
.4 * 2200 + .36103 * 6200 = 2223 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

(.4)(2200) + (.36103)(6200) =~ 3118 chips