Folding QQ

[AZK]

When I find myself in situations like this I normally end up calling the raise and pushing on any turn card that doesn't pair the board or is a brick. If he wants to take roughly less than 2:1 on a slightly larger than 3:1 shot let him. Playing against these opponents is tough only when you have a short bankroll not when they have a big stack. I'll get it all in with these guys all day long as 70:30 favorite, it just sucks when I only have 2 buyins...

[Cornell Fiji]

I agree that the only two correct plays given your read are:

1 - raise all in because of the money in the pot already and the fact that you think you are on avg 50/50 to win this pot

2 - fold and cashout. this comment 'he's beaten so many people with rags that my thinking is if he does have the nut flush draw, I'd rather wait to get my $ in with more of an edge than what I have. ' means that you have resolved not to play optimal poker because of the stack sizes. Find a smaller game.

-Steve

[georgesimpson]

" means that you have resolved not to play optimal poker because of the stack sizes. Find a smaller game."

I agree with this statement in most instances but I would like to add that even if I'm playing a game where my bankroll represents 10x the buy in that I will routinely pass up 5% edges (including the money in the pot) if the play is absolutely horrendous. Last night, I was playing a live game with a buy in which represented 1/7th of my bankroll. I did this because a couple of the guys there were drunk and high and playing absolutely terrible poker where they would push with anything. I didn't want to play optimal poker pursuing small edges, on one hand I had QQ in early position and made it 5x the big blind, he flat called in middle position and the flop came with an A 5 7. I bet out and he reraised hard. It turned out it was a bluff. Sure, I knew he bluffed an insane amount but it was far worth it to me to just wait it out where I had a more sure edge, although I felt comfortable enough to call his all in the way he was playing with uncontrolled aggression for hours.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm a big fan of not pushing small edges in stakes that may be a little bit too high where the edge is very considerable because there is a large profit to be made just being a little too tight.

[georgesimpson]

btw we have a fiji house at northwestern and they are cool as hell.

[KegNog]

Man, I'd really like to dispell the "rumor" that if you make a fold to a maniac with a small edge that you must be some kind of 1st time poker player without any balls to make a call/raise.
I've read countless accounts of professional players folding big holdings to wait out a sucker, is this something that's absolutely discredited in these forums??

I'm not at all saying I made the right play, and mathematically it was correct to call/raise given the pot odds and the $ in the pot, but why on earth are some people focused solely on "you folded to a maniac when you have an edge...you wuss, go play somewhere's else or else take a stand."

I'm all about hearing criticism, which is why I put the thread up. But w/o knowing a damn thing about me or how I play, have a little common sense and realize what I was doing here in this ONE hand.

Should I go on to mention my other hands throughout the night for you? Or mention my roll after 4 more hours of play at this table - this hand happened about an hour and a half into the night so it's STILL early also. Should I mention that by showing QQ and folding I set up a few other opportunities for other people to try to bluff me and I took down BIGGER pots than this one.

I'd think that optinal poker isn't ONE hand throughout the course of the night and an optimal player wouldn't restrict his thoughts to the play of ONE hand mentioned on a poker forum as evidence of a poor/strong player.

Get real...

[elnino12]

Given your reads so far, I think folding or pushing are both reasonable plays, even though they are so vastly dissimilar . If I had KK or AA, I definitely would push...but laying QQ isn't a horrible play by any means since you figured correctly that you were about even money at best. He could also have a set (in which case you're way behind)...or he could even have A4, since he's already willing to play K5. You just have to trust your instinct/feel sometimes. If you know that players like this will be at the table for a while, there's no shame in waiting for a hand that you're more sure about. Just be happy that he showed down his hand and gave you a little info (and that he's willing to play K5s for a pot-sized bring in) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Hope the rest of the night worked out for you.

[KegNog]

Thanks el, this is what I like seeing up here; tell me the facts and/or opinions about the hand not the player! Appreciate it man [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[muck_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing a $2-$5 PL game [...]

I'm UTG with 2 black Queens and raise to $35 (max bring in is $30 UTG), MP player calls and Button calls.

[...]
Flop come 2s-3s-5c. I bet the pot ($120), MP folds and BB raises the pot ($360). I have $450 left in front of me and go into the tank.
[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody else mentioned that this isn't pot limit. Your max open in 2-5 in games where you round up the small blind is $20 (call the 5, round up the small blind, raise $15). Then on the flop there should have been $112 in the pot and you could have bet $115 assuming you round up to $5 increments (common). This assumes you really did open for $35 (35*3 + 2 + 5 = 112).

You made a statement about having folded this hand setup later hands. You didn't show it did you?

[KegNog]

Firts off this IS pot limit.

The preflop bring in raise is $30 (house rule to give the UTG player some comfort of a raise). The $35 bet being called by 3 players PLUS the $7 in the pot from the blinds made it $112 in the pot and it is rounded to nearest $10 for ease = $120. This wasn't at a casino...

Yup I showed. And on purpose because I knew I'd get guys flying at me at some point. I can't show here if I don't intend to call down/reraise later in the night.

Later in the game I had KK go all in vs QQ when flop was J high. similarly had 33 all in vs JJ when the flop came 3-9-10.

All these hands were against players like this one where if I lead out, I'll get reraised in most cases (I was first to act in each of these hands) and I wanted to play the hands similarly to the QQ folding.

[muck_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Firts off this IS pot limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

<sarcasm>
It could also be called No limit, but you can only bet the pot except for under the gun. Or maybe limit, except you can open for some wierd number UTG and bet the pot the rest of the way. Or maybe spread limit where the top number changes to the size of the pot except for UTG.
</sarcasm>

You should explain what other strange rules exist before describing a hand for a couple of reasons. First off, given you called it pot but clearly opened for something which isn't usu. allowed in a pot game made me question the rest of the action. Second, it might effect the analysis of the hand.

If showing your hand is an infrequent occurance, OK. But imagination is a lot stronger then reality. Let 'em imagine.