bkd takes poor kevin to poker school... - Page 2

Chaos_ult · #11 12-02-2004, 09:48 AM

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The flop 3 bet was a valiant but wasted attempt to get to see this cheap to the river. The cap seemed to be telling me AK no goot. (so KK really, really no goot).

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You 3-bet him preflop, and he still raises you on that flop. I really don't think that a 3-bet here is going to accomplish what you were trying to do. Call, and fold the turn unimproved.

sfer · #12 12-02-2004, 10:23 AM

Did you think about calling the flop 3-bet and checkraising the turn?

AdamL · #13 12-02-2004, 10:30 AM

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Depends. Here I would have.

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What are your criteria and why?

StellarWind · #14 12-02-2004, 11:07 AM

Checking the flop is an interesting idea. I suspect that betting is -EV because of your weak hand and the danger of being checkraised so you may save money immediately. The strategic idea is to provoke bdk3clash into assuming the initiative on the turn with his weaker hands so that you can play this as a simple calldown.

Checking also varies your play. This checkraise was too much of a sure thing. Supposedly you have position but that sure isn't evident given the way the hand played out.

It's not completely clear what to do on the turn. bdk3clash could be up to something.

What is clear is that you should not be in that situation. 3-betting this board for a free card is not a good play against virtually anyone, but against a strong player it is terrible.

This board really favors weaker, noncapping PFRs (KQ, AJ, AT, JJ, TT) over most of the powerful 3-betting hands (KK, QQ, AK). You are likely to be behind and you can expect to be vigorously attacked because the situation will be pretty obvious.

If you calmly call the flop checkraise then you can decide on the turn whether to fold or look him up. Either approach would be reasonable and you wouldn't have anything to regret at the end of the hand.

Kevin · #15 12-02-2004, 07:00 PM

First of all, thanks for the feedback. The nice thing about playing you all at the tables is that we we play 15-18% and come in for a raise more often than not, It is usually a 3 bet or fold - so I get to stay out of your way most of the time.
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What is clear is that you should not be in that situation. 3-betting this board for a free card is not a good play against virtually anyone, but against a strong player it is terrible.

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Thank you for this brutal and honest feedback. It is a lesson learned that will hopefully save me lots of bets in the future.
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This board really favors weaker, noncapping PFRs (KQ, AJ, AT, JJ, TT) over most of the powerful 3-betting hands (KK, QQ, AK). You are likely to be behind and you can expect to be vigorously attacked because the situation will be pretty obvious.

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This is very insightful in retrospect - and a very valued lesson that I will take forward.

I guess a question for the villian [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] is why with a 3 bet pre-flop and a 3 bet on the flop was AA not even considered? Is it because there was only 1 combination of AA vs the 6 for kings and queens and the many for AK? Obviously a great read, but I was just wondering for my future reference.

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fold the turn unimproved.

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I would also fold the turn

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Easiest turn fold ever. A know good player who didnt cap it when you 3 bet preflop is now going nutso on you on the flop. He clearly jas AJ or KQ. AT or TT is a possibility

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It is pretty much unanimous - fold the turn. However, in John's message above, I have 6 outs to AJ, AT and TT and 3 outs to chop with KQ. So, if they are weighted evenly, it is 5.25 (4.5 to win .75 to chop) outs. somewhere between 7.5 and 10.5 to 1 with the pot laying 8.6 (If I am calculating correctly - which could be a fundamental flaw).

Not second guessing anyone, just hoping for some simple clarification so that I don't make the same mistake in the future.

Overplaying big pairs with overs is a part of the game that I need to continue to get better with and this feedback will really help. I find myself hopelessly paying off these hands while folding a small pair to a late position bet when there was a good chance that a little resistance could take that pot down.

If anyone gets a chance to look at my 99 hand that got buried below, I would appreciate it. It was a tough fold, and I want to make sure that it was the right thing to do - regardless of the outcome of the hand.

Results below, if anyone is interested (though most nailed it).

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
Main Pot: 11.66 BB, between MP2, Hero and BB. > Pot won by MP2 (11.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
MP2 has Td Ad (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins 11.66 BB.

MoreWineII · #16 12-02-2004, 07:29 PM

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I guess a question for the villian is why with a 3 bet pre-flop and a 3 bet on the flop was AA not even considered?

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I'm not villian, but...

He doesn't have any reason really to put you on exactly AA or JJ at this point. You'd probably play AQ or AK the same way on the flop, maybe QQ or KK even

Had you raised the turn, *then* I'd be willing to bet bdk slows down.