And I Still Can't Play Paired Flops (help pls)

[ChrisV]

Well, if you want to use that definition, then there's a third way of winning a poker hand - betting and taking it down when nobody has either a better hand or a correct draw. I guess you could call this "not letting yourself get outplayed" since by checking, you give the opponents a chance to either check through (making their two outers, or whatever, "correct draws") or bet strongly, forcing you off your better hand.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "ability to make correct value-based decisions" but I think you'll agree that this is a war of information. If you fold every time you're too tight, if you call down every time that's too loose. Somehow you have to acquire enough information to make correct decisions. I don't think checking the flop does that often enough as if someone bets 200 and it folds back to me I won't know what to do, either now or on the turn. Checking may have worked well this hand as if it goes bet and someone calls back to you, fold seems clear, so you save 200 chips. I think this is a rarer occurrence though.

[Irieguy]

Yeah, that's the main problem with a lead-out bet, in my opinion... you give your opponents too juicy an opportunity to outplay you. This is mainly because of the number of opponents in this case.

There are so many possibilities where you could be forced to fold what is likely the best hand: any combination of two people getting froggy will force you to fold, whereas they may have been content to check the flop... or more commonly, one goof-ball can make a move with a small pair and your call can get all of the overcards out.

In order for this to work you have to be good at knowing when to call and when to fold. I understand that this is easier said than done... but throwing a few hundred chips at 6 opponents with position on me doesn't seem like a profitable play. Check-folding seems better than bet-folding to me.

Irieguy

[Sluss]

Okay the check raise is a bad idea. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I'm just looking for a way to make this guy make a decision.

I am only saying raise this pre-flop to make myself more of the table bully. Saying to the table look your not going to be able to see cheap flops anymore. Playing my stack more than the cards. At this level you still have a very deep stack with the chip lead a little bully here can give you fold equity later. Of course that is just my theory.

I will admit that at $5 tables. The smart play is to just show down the best hand. Something I needed to consider better.

[ChrisV]

The first response is nuts. I'd call the preflop raise to 200 suicidal, but that would leave no word to describe the turn checkraise.

The flop looks ok, I would probably bet 200.

On the turn you're screwed. Ask yourself what two people are calling with on a flop like that. Sometimes they have two worse jacks, or a worse jack and a mid pair, but most of the time you're in deep trouble here (doesn't even have to be the 4, could be KJ or AJ). You should be checking here and most of the time folding. Sometimes you have to admit you're out of position and suck it up - you're beaten most of the time here anyway.

[rci97]

I guess I look at this hand in a kind of simple way:

1) Unraised pot with 5 players (who literally then could almost have anything)

2) I have no problem with the flop bet.

3) Once you get not one, but TWO calls, on a board that doesn't contain any draws, how can you not shut down and try to play as small a pot as possible?

4) After the flop bet, you still have a very comfortable chip position (~4300). Your two callers have far less chips and they are calling with a board that has neither a flush draw nor a straight draw. You have no need to gamble. Why continue betting a hand, out of position, where you quite possibly could be almost drawing dead? Obviously, there's no way you're going to get a player holding a 4 to fold this hand. I gotta believe that the chances that one of these guys either has a 4 or a higher jack is pretty high. Sometimes, you're just beat. Try to show down this hand as cheaply as possible. Just my opinion....

[captZEEbo1]

one piece of advice I've read (in Super/System) is that you should not be losing lots of chips in an unraised pot. Since this was unraised, you really have no idea what people have, making your hand relatively weak. With 5 people seeing a paired flop, you really have no idea what people have. I'm definitely check-calling on the flop. If an A hits and someone hits it, so be it. By checking, you can represent the slowplayed 4 too, so if someone has KJ, you don't lose too much $. And if someone has the 4, they are checking the flop too. If it's checked around, just bet 100 on the turn.