Should Terrorists Be Tortured?

Aren't torture-induced confessions notoriously unreliable? I think most people will just start sayign anything and everything they think their torturers want to hear to make them stop.


On another note, I think the real philisophical question, is do we want to prevent future attacks on the society with the values we have now or on a society that tortures people?


We could always just let the Israelis have them for a bit since they don't have any problem with torturing susspects.


Paul Talbot

Well, I'm undecided on this whole issue but I don't think we should be trying to force confessions in any case. I was thinking more along the lines of possibly forcing them to provide their list of contacts, associates and bosses--and where these people could be found...and perhaps trying to get at information regarding future plots. Naturally, captured lieutenants or leaders would be more valuable for these purposes than mere rank-and-file terrorists.


I agree there are serious philosophical and ethical/moral considerations which weigh against the use of such techniques. I am merely questioning whether war and self-defense might be creating conditions where the end actually would justify the means in with regards to this issue.

How do you know whether or not I saw combat or served in the military? Because I'm against torture? What difference would it make if I saw combat or not? Are only those who were in combat or the military entitled to be citizens and have opinions? Can only chickens recognize eggs?


The United States has never treated its enemies like "bicycle thieves." and I don't think President Bush and Secrretary Rumsfeld are doing it now.


Should we take some planes and fly them into our enemies' buildings? How should we torture them? Branding irons in their eyes? Chop of their children's fingers one at a time while we force them to watch?


Give me a break and try to remember what it is we're fighting for.

They should be forced to reveal their financial holdings. Collaborators in the USA should be jailed for 20 to life. This includes internet poker players, and the owners of these companies should get life without parole.

"How do you know whether or not I saw combat or served in the military? Because I'm against torture?"


I regretted this comment as soon as I wrote it. I left it in because I believe it to be true. Not having military or combat experience doesn't mean you are not entitled to an opinion, but it does mean that you're opinion is unlikely to be helpful when it comes to such matters.


"The United States has never treated its enemies like "bicycle thieves." and I don't think President Bush and Secrretary Rumsfeld are doing it now."


But you are suggesting that we treat them as criminals, right? Strictly above board. Make sure their civil liberties are protected, are treated in a humane manner, blah, blah, blah. I won't speak for love, but anything is fair in war. You do what's necessary for survival. Sometimes it's a choice between the lesser of two evils, but you do what you must to make sure the objective or best outcome is met. How humane would it have been to shoot down and kill innocent passengers not even knowing if there were children aboard the hijacked flight which went down in Pittsburgh? What about their families, etc. But you should be glad someone in the chain of command had the backbone to issue such an order, even if you yourself could not have.


"How should we torture them? Branding irons in their eyes? Chop of their children's fingers one at a time while we force them to watch?"


Answering this question only furthers your cause to cry over a lack of decency, but whatever needs to be done to reduce our own collateral damages while benefitting us in the war, should be done.

I fail to see how my having had combat experience would make it more or less likely that my comments on whether or not we should torture people would be helpful.


If we resorted to the same tactics of our enemies, i.e., flying airplanes into buildings, then it wouldn't matter to me if we won the war or lost it. I wouldn't care if we won because we would have lost our moral claim to be better people than they are. It would simply be two monsters fighting each other, and the world would be better off if both sides lost.

"I wouldn't care if we won because we would have lost our moral claim to be better people than they are." ~SNIP~ "It would simply be two monsters fighting each other, and the world would be better off if both sides lost."


Andy-


What would you call a people who dropped two seperate atomic bombs on members of their own human race?


I don't mean to belittle you, but do think that when a U.S. fighter pilot drops his bomb or presses the button that launches a hellfire missile that people just die cleanly? BOOM! Their dead? It's all over? This is what I meant by combat experience. People get blown in half, while still alive. These people are fathers and husbands to someone. When our bombs miss (as will happen), a father might have to watch his child writhe in pain because shrapnel just tore through the kid's eyes. Oh, wait a sec... You're humane.. You're not a monster.. You don't want any part of the stuff that ACTUALLY goes on down there at ground zero, do you? But I'll bet you'll close your eyes and accept it because you know it's for the good of our country. What if it prevents further incidents of the terrible suffering which you witnessed of our own American Citizens on September 11? Then is it Ok? Or do you think that maybe we should just bow out now? Not be the monsters they are and let them wipe out about another 30,000 or so Americans because Andy Fox didn't care if we won?

Torture by hand, or torture from 30,000 feet . . . very interesting point.


I guess an argument could be made that we are torturing people right now for information and cooperation. Talk or see your kids die, give up bin laden or watch your wife get her head blown off. Yes, I agree we already are torturing humans in every sense of the word.


Very good argument.

I have not denied that war is hell. Ugly hell. What I am saying is that there must be limits beyond which we should not go. Torture is beyond those limits. Dropping bombs is not the same thing as torture. Combat is not the same thing either.


As for the atom bombs dropped at the end of World War II, what is most remembered about that era are the Nazi concentration camps and the atomic bombs. We can argue the pros and cons of the necessity of dropping the bombs, but my answer to your question ["What would you call a people who dropped. . .?] is morally blinded.


To say that in war everything and anything is acceptable is not acceptable to me. Certainly there should be limits, even in wartime, beyond which we will not go, lest we become no better, or worse, than our enemies. That we have gone beyond those limits in the past (if indeed we have) is no reason to do so again. One can be against particular actions and policies and still not be a pacifist. I was and am in favor of striking back militarily at those responsible for the actions of September 11. Sometimes you have to fight. I am opposed to torturing people. I don't see these as contradictory.

What if by torturing a few (who were either privvy or party to the atrocities of September 11,), we save the lives of thousands of innocents from becoming their next target?


What if by torturing a few (who were either privvy or party to the atrocities of September 11,), we prevent the same torture endured by those faced with the decision of melting in a burning high rise or leaping 70 stories to certain death?


What if by torturing a few (who were either privvy or party to the atrocious acts of September 11,), we prevent any more American children attending day care from being buried beneath thousands of pounds of rubble?


What if by torturing a few (who were either privvy or party to the atrocious acts of September 11,), it brings an end to this war sooner saving thousands more and insuring victory?


And what if by NOT torturing these few, America actually loses this war, its freedom, its way of life and everything else which makes this the greatest nation on earth? At least you have the right to express your feelings. If the terrorists have their way, you won't have even this right.