ATo preflop - I have no idea

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I weren't telling OP to raise the flop. I was arguing a preflop raise and a flop call. How many outs do you think we have on the flop? I think that we have enough to call getting 11-1.

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Yea sorry about that. I'm just tired after a whole night of playing.

Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

[adsman]

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I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs,

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You might want to learn to do so.

[mvoss]

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Yea sorry about that. I'm just tired after a whole night of playing.

Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

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No problem.

I think you should reread the SSHE section on counting outs. You shouldn't count the Aces as full outs and you should take backdoor draws into account. You're losing money if you don't estimate your no. of outs correctly.

You could raise preflop and you could call the flop?

Both are close decisions.

Preflop I play the same.
Closing the action on the flop, I might peel.

[AlmightyJay]

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Preflop only. No reads, <10 hands on the table. This can not be right.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks.

River: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

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I'm generally folding ATo from this position.

Good fold

[Coolidge]

For me, I think I raise or muck this preflop from EP.
Anyone? Or I am I leaking.

[adsman]

On the flop you have an overcard, a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight. But more importantly, you are closing the action. So take one off.

[KingOtter]

Wow... what horrible advice so far.

ATo is fine as an early limp. Didn't really want to see the raise, but calling it is fine. I would NOT raise it pre-flop, though, unless I was raising to isolate a loose limper. And then I'd want to be MP or LP.

On the flop, you do have 2 back-doors and a chance to hit your A to make a top-pair. You're getting extremely good odds... odds good enough to hit 4 outs. 2 backdoors is can count as 2.5 and the A can count as 1.5. I think a call would be fine.

Then the turn, if checked to me I might bet out thinking I could take it there, depending on how strong I may appear to be to others.

To recap:
- Don't raise this pf (unless isolating, or stealing)
- Don't fold this pf
- Don't raise the flop

Shudder... is this what Micros has come to while I've been gone?

KO

[mvoss]

I remember a lot of discussion about wether to raise of limp hands like ATo KQo and KJo from EP. Especially I remember some excellent posts from GrunchCan arguing a preflop raise with these hands. Unfortunately it seems that I'm not intelligent enough to find these posts using the fantastic search function, maybe some of you guys remember these posts as well? When I put what I remember together with the fact that this game is 8-handed, I'm voting for a raise with this PF. Could you please tell me why we don't want to raise PF here?

Edited to say that I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'd just really like to know why it's wrong to raise this preflop.