Not sure if I even played a hand like this...

[Aces McGee]

Hi Joe

Very interesting and thought-provoking hand. A good one to post.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought my outs were clean.


[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true, why didn't you raise the river? I have a guess, but I want to hear it from you, rather than provide it to you.

McGee

[J.R.]

But the flipside is if he doesn't have it, and one of those 5 opponents raises him after he leads into the field, is he likely to think they have it?

I think this is a case of placing the burden- by calling, you are essentially resigned to give the pot away unless you improve and you have no hand stength so you are not inducing a bluff in a way ahead/way behind scenario, but by rasing, you put the hard decision on your opponent and gain an additional way to win.

That's not to say his play is not also consistent with a missed flop check-raise, so folding can't be wrong if your read is that you are likely drawing dead, but I think if you choose to continue, you should give yourself a greater chance of winning by raising.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
but by rasing, you put the hard decision on your opponent and gain an additional way to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This went through my head but I got stuck in the middle because of this...

[ QUOTE ]
That's not to say his play is not also consistent with a missed flop check-raise, so folding can't be wrong if your read is that you are likely drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

He definately was the type that over-check-raised, over-bluffed and over-played a few hands. Just one of those squirmy-slippery types I have trouble with now and then.

Peace J.R.,
J.T.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
If that's true, why didn't you raise the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could have went for the flop check-raise and missed. I just froze in my seat and called. He was definately capable of a StueyU-river-bluff-bet, but he could have the nuts.

Peace,
JT

[J.R.]

If he was on a bluff or has some small pocket-pair, I have plenty of cards to improve, I think calling is the best option.

Why is calling superior to raising in the case where this read is correct?

You can get out if he 3-bets. If he calls your raise you know you are almost always behind but probably with outs, so this alows you to bet a favorable river card or check it through unimproved (like raising a made hand with a re-draw in position on the turn), and there is a chance he folds a hand that beats J high when you raise.

By calling you set yourself up to be moved off the pot if your opponent can follow thru with a bluff on the river with a worse hand than J high, which it seems like he may be able to do, or moved off by a hand that would have folded to a turn raise. I suppose your call could scare him into not bluffing the river (if your image is tight) and that weighs in favor of calling, but I still think raising is superior.

[mosch]

Yes, I would play 66 like that.

Thinking about it more I don't think it's a particularly bad play, and if your read on 66 is right, you do have odds on it, but I still don't like it.

If I were the BB, I might end up with the same exact action with x4, looking to check-raise the ace-holding (or button-betting) bettor on the flop. When the check-raise missed on the flop, I might just bet out looking to pick up the pot, and make sure the new-found flush draw had to pay to see the river.

--Double Down

[RockLobster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But since you described him as you did, I'd play it the same way here and there...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think becoming a call-station here is the best play. I couldn't think of any other way.

Will you be getting to Fox this winter? Nice to see you around again. Hope you and the fam have a great holiday.

Peace,
JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot, I wish you the same. I don't expect to be back at FW for a while, but I'll let you know if that changes.

Take care--

[CrackerZack]

On the flop:
I think any ace here bets most of the time. If you get C/R'd you have an easy fold. So I'd consider betting because if can get hands that are ahead of you, like JT to fold. But I don't dislike the check either.

On the turn:
I really don't like the call-call plan here. A raise really sticks it to something like 55-TT maybe even bigger pairs giving them a tough call. If you're 3-bet by a BB hoping the c/r the flop, which you will be if he has and ace, you can fold without a though. Bigger overcards than you will almost certainly fold, and you can check it through on the river if you don't improve. I can't see any advantage to call-call here versus raise-check. Call, call loses to Kx, Qx, JT, where Raise, check and they fold. Call, call loses 2 bets to 55-JJ (figuring QQ and KK raise PF) where Raise-check also loses 2 bets and possibly wins if you make them fold. A 4 wouldn't 3-bet you on a double paired board and an Ace always will. You're gonna lose 2 when you lose virtually every single time but a raise gives you many more shots to win? Or maybe I'm nuts.

[AceHigh]

I think I would raise the turn, it's possible you are drawing dead for the flush so you don't have to call a 3-bet and a lot of better hands might fold to your raise.

[Clarkmeister]

I haven't seen the rest of this thread, but *if* you decide to call the turn, you simply must raise. It's literally fold or raise here. He'll fold any pocket pair like a cheap suit the vast majority of the time and you can easily fold to a 3-bet.

I mean, what do you do on the river when you miss and he bets again? Its not like he's going to stop betting. Your Jack high may actually be good! This is why you raise the turn. Calling with Jack high isn't something you need to be adding to your repetoire.