Common problem from the BB

[spamuell]

TGC 1/2 9-handed
. Just sat down, no reads.


Hero is in the BB with Ah 8c

UTG raises, EP1 cold-calls, MP cold-calls, SB folds, Hero thinks and decides to call

<font color="blue"> The thought process that goes through my mind is something like, hmmm UTG raised, must have a strong hand, I'm probably dominated, I'll fold. On the other hand, he might have KK-TT or possibly even lower, and I am getting 7.5:1 on my call, so I'll see a flop and see what develops. The problem here is, I don't really know what I want to see - if I flop TPTK with a flop of 8xx (where xx is lower than 8), I could be drawing to 5 outs. If I flop Axx, I could be drawing to 3 outs or even drawing dead.</font>

Should I call from the BB with these kind of hands?

I will show what happened in the rest of the hand, to demonstrate the difficulty I am presented with:

Four of us take the flop for 8.5sb.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, UTG calls, EP1 folds, MP calls.

<font color="blue"> My thoughts when I flopped the ace were, oh no, I've flopped an ace and I'm probably dominated, I'll check-fold. Wait a minute, I might have just cracked someone's KK, and check folding with top pair is weak-tight. Also, I called pre-flop, what was I hoping for (other than the obvious A88)? OK, I decide, I'll bet. Then I get called by the PF raiser which says to me he either has a high PP which he won't let go, or flopped a very strong hand and is waiting until the turn to raise. And what could that final caller have cold-called with and then called that flop? AT? Looks like I'm behind.</font>

The three of us see a turn for 11.5sb (probably 11 given rake, I didn't check):

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets, UTG raises, MP cold-calls, Hero folds

<font color="blue"> What I'm thinking here is, hmm, I was called in 2 spaces on the flop so I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, I'd better check it. Wait a minute, if I check and UTG bets which he almost certainly will if checked to, I'm told nothing about whether I'm beaten and will be forced to call to the river unless MP raises, which, given his play so far, seems unlikely. Right, I'd better bet it then... damn, he raised me, he was either slowplaying a flopped set (probably of aces) or he just hit a set of kings or 2 pair with AK. Well I'm drawing stone dead to all those hands, theren't aren't really many wacky draws out there and with him being called by MP, I need to fold.</font>

So there I am, at the end of the hand with 2BBs less than I started with, never knowing where I was, what I wanted to see, or what I was drawing to. Does all this info point to the fact that I should muck A8o pre-flop, even when getting 7.5:1 on my call?

What I generally do at the moment if I am getting these kind of odds with this hand from the blinds is muck if I've played some hands recently, and call when I haven't seen a flop for 3 orbits, hoping that people don't see me as too tight and refuse to pay me off when I make a hand.

Thanks for any help

[bisonbison]

The hands that you want to call one cold with are those that can hit big hands and get paid off - high flush draws (preferably with connectors) and pocket pairs, shooting for a set, either of which you can fold if you miss the flop. The only hands that A8o can make are likely to be dominated, and you'll be out of position for the whole hand. This is a fold.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts when I flopped the ace were, oh no, I've flopped an ace and I'm probably dominated, I'll check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before you make any preflop call (especially one that you consider marginal), think about which flop(s) you would like to see, and which ones you really wouldn't.

This is an easy muck preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
What I generally do at the moment if I am getting these kind of odds with this hand from the blinds is muck if I've played some hands recently, and call when I haven't seen a flop for 3 orbits, hoping that people don't see me as too tight and refuse to pay me off when I make a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

The vast majority of LL players won't notice you folding, especially online. It's also very common for even poor players to muck their BB to a preflop raise. They won't notice unless you always muck to a late-position steal raise.

[ProfLupin]

Never use pot odds as an excuse to call a raise with a crap hand! Use pot odds as a tool not an excuse! Say that to yourself three times every time you are tempted.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Never use pot odds as an excuse to call a raise with a crap hand! Use pot odds as a tool not an excuse!

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a VERY good point. Even if you can somehow calculate a tiny edge to calling a raise with any given hand, it's probably not worth the hassle if you have to play the hand 1,000 times to win a single big bet with it.

SpaceAce