Player notes\reads

[bdmcgraw]

This is the area of poker I have long struggled with.
Been playing for around a year and have been an overall winner, mainly focusing on 1/2 6max.

However, my problem is that I rarely pay attention to the other players. In the past few months, I was either playing 3-4 tables(mainly due to bankroll bonuses), playing 2 tables + tournament, playing 1 table + watching TV, all while browsing the internet (reading 2+2, etc) and using instant messengers.

I rarely notice anything standoutish about players unless they are super super aggressive. I have pokertracker and have tried to use GT+ but it rarely works.

Now to the real part..what do you pay attention to while trying to make notes on players? Can you post some sample notes that you have on opponents?

I have been playing purely from a "my card" perspective, and though I still believe I'm a winning player(the "my card" perspective sounds worse than it is, I feel that I play well postflop and usually know whether I am winning or not), I won't be able to go much further without improving this aspect of my game.

Thanks

[Grisgra]

Take note of what they donkbet with (if they do) -- that's huge. Whether they slowplay or fastplay. Whether they semibluff. What the coldcall with. And whether they're predictable postflop.

[helpmeout]

Just use PV/GT+/ Pokeraces one

Taking actual notes isnt hugely important as long as you are paying attention to the game.

Dont be doing 15 things at once.

Its ok to do other things but dont be doing multiple other things. Dont chat to half a dozen people and have long conversations, keep your focus mainly on poker.

[Grisgra]

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Taking actual notes isnt hugely important as long as you are paying attention to the game.

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There's some tasty -EV advice [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Remember that you *will* encounter many of these players again. Silly to reinvent the wheel.

[helpmeout]

Players play different depending on each situation, sometimes they are on tilt, sometimes they are adapting to other players, sometimes they are experimenting.

You dont encounter that many of the same players again anyway online, I'm not gonna base my play on month old notes.

Much easier to just focus on how they are playing now.

[naphand]

This is really bad advice in general. If you are 4+ tabling and playing under $10/$20 then perhaps not so important to have good notes.

Just use PV/GT+ etc. if you want to play average poker or are banging off so many tables you do not have time to take notes.

Maybe taking poor quality notes is not very useful - taking notes on specific plays that can be explited is very +EV. Some players have specific habits that, once you know what they mean, save and earn extra BB.

Of course many players you don't see again, but good habits don't hurt and as you move up limits players turn up more regularly. Notes don't just apply to bad players, perhaps less so in fact.

There are posts on shorthand-notation for player habits, worth looking up and spending time thinking about it.

[helpmeout]

A new player should take notes.

Someone with a fair amount of experience doesnt need to if they concentrate at the tables. It obviously doesnt hurt unless you lose concentration in other areas while you are thinking about notes.

A large number of players play very similarly especially at higher limits.

A typical table might consist of weaktight, weaktight, TAG, weaktight, slightly loose TAG, loose passive, loose agro. You should know how to adjust to each player type.

You pretty much know their hand ranges.

A lot of play is based more on table image as well. So old notes dont really come into consideration.

[naphand]

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A typical table might consist of weaktight, weaktight, TAG, weaktight, slightly loose TAG, loose passive, loose agro.

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These definitions are not enough by a very long way.

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A large number of players play very similarly especially at higher limits.

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Have you read Roy Cooke? From this book it is plain that knowing your opponents idiosyncrasies is vital to extracting extra BB.

I would say taking notes is less important for a new player at low limits, where the population is large and turnover very high. At high limits online the population is small enough to remember players, but even so note-taking cannot be a disadvantage esp. when getting to know players.

In-between I think it depends of how many tables you play. There is no question that having notes, and updating them gives you an edge. Information is King online, but I guess time is Queen. If you can get by on memory alone then jolly good - it is still bad advice to recommend not taking notes and even worse to suggest that only new players need to do this.

I agree though, that frantic scribbling/typing can distract from good observation. I more often make most of my notes when reviewing key hands against players in PokerTracker after I have stopped playing. Perhaps you might agree that a player you regularly meet who is either tough or very exploitable, going over their hands in PT and making notes could be very worthwhile.

[helpmeout]

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I would say taking notes is less important for a new player at low limits

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Its more important because a new player should be learning about what to look for.

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Have you read Roy Cooke? From this book it is plain that knowing your opponents idiosyncrasies is vital to extracting extra BB.


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Roy Cooke plays B&M where you will see the same players more frequently, they also have tells. You play a lot less hands per hour for a lower return so you need every edge you get. You also have a long time between hands for notetaking and such.

Online you dont get that same kind of information. You get a bunch of numbers on a screen and much less time to act.

Once you learn the numbers you learn what sort of hands they will be raising or folding, what they'll call with. How aggressive they are etc.

The only real players you need to know more about are the unpredictable/bad players who 1 minute are calling with trips and the next raising TPTK. These players play so many hands that you can get a lot of information just from watching the game. These guys are unpredictable they play based on their moods they dont have set strategies.

Poker is very situational, some notes at one table may not mean much at another table because the games are different. Some notes are going to be negative EV because they are totally wrong. Notes can be bad because you want to get value for your notes so you take them more into perspective than the actual game situation. (I've wasted all this time with notes I'm going to use them whether they are right or not)

To get really good notes you have to watch someone like a hawk. Online you just dont get that kind of time and at higher games you should be thinking about so many other things.

[Stack]

It is worth taking notes ONLY IF you can exploit your opponoent's weaknesses.

This guy is passive and straight forward after the flop.
That guy donkbets with a weak-made hand like middle-pair bad kicker on the flop.
This fish just can't fold an Ace overcard until the river and he also calls down any piece of the flop.

If you don't know how to exploit the weaknesses above, don't waist time taking notes. Either open up another table or go back to chatting with your friends. Take notes if you can exploit them.

If the first guy (passive and straightforward) is 3betting the turn, let your middle-pair top kicker go if you don't have odds to draw.

If the second guy donkbets, raise with your overpair or pop him on the turn, and if you have only overcards, you are probably drawing.

Against the third player, don't forget to value bet.

Take notes if you know what adjustments you have to make to exploit the new-found weakness.

This post is intended at beginners (like myself). Better players can exploit many more situations and note taking is more +EV to them.