Omaha 8/HI

[Epix]

how will you play these hand in Omaha 8/HI 1/2$

Table "Toledo" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 1: Epix|Dk ($39.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Jenessa ($40 in chips)
Seat 4: fedesen ($179.25 in chips)
Seat 5: PBaek ($87 in chips)
Seat 6: Azzurro11 ($79 in chips)
Seat 7: shop4anty ($65.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Szimat ($116 in chips)
Seat 9: snowball ($27.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Tigress62 ($59 in chips)
Tigress62 sits out
Epix|Dk: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Epix|Dk [Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
fedesen: raises $2
PBaek: folds
Azzurro11: calls $2
shop4anty: calls $2
Szimat: folds
snowball: folds
Epix|Dk: raises $2
fedesen: calls $1
Azzurro11: calls $1
shop4anty: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
Epix|Dk: bets $1
fedesen: raises $2
Azzurro11: folds
shop4anty: folds
PBaek leaves the table
Epix|Dk: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]][Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Epix|Dk: checks
fedesen: bets $2
Epix|Dk: raises $4
fedesen: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]][A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
Epix|Dk: bets $2
fedesen: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Epix|Dk: shows [Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (Three of a kind, Queens, Ace high)
fedesen: shows [9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (Three of a kind, Aces, Queen high)
fedesen collected $26.75 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $28 Main pot $26.75 | Rake $1.25
Board [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
Seat 1: Epix|Dk (big blind) lost
Seat 2: Jenessa lost
Seat 4: fedesen showed [9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] and won ($26.75) with Three of a kind, Aces, Queen high
Seat 6: Azzurro11 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: shop4anty folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Szimat folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 9: snowball (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)

I know my hand is played wrong, i only played this hand because i was BB.(Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])
But i want to know how you will play the winning hand (A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

<font color="red"> preflop-flop-turn-river(raise) [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] </font>

Epix

[Beavis68]

there is very little reason to play this hand at all, none to call a raise with - and a re-raise? The call on the flop, you are chasing the third nut flush with two low card on the board, you have no quaranteed win cards, and even if your flush does hold up, odds are you will only get half the pot.

You are very lucky your opponent didnt re-raise you on the river, probably thought you had a low draw.

Over to you Buzz.

The AA96, I dont think I would have raised with that, I have even folded a hand like this before, the flop, with top two pair and a flush draw - I hate hands like this....

BTW, I am a newbie at this game myself.

[Buzz]

Epix - First of all, you do realize you don't have a very good starting hand. Right?

Even so, you'd like to see the flop, just in case it has a queen.

You might be thinking you'd like to see the flop in case it has (1) a queen, (2) an eight, (3) three spades, (4) two spades, or (5) 9-T-J.

The more you play, the more you'll realize that making (2) a set of eights on the flop can be treacherous.

A flop with (3) three spades is tough to play if you have a king and the ace isn't one of the spades. When you have a queen and the three spades include an ace or a king, you're in the same position. When you have a queen and the three spades don't include an ace or a king, the hand is very difficult to play. You might be able to pick out someone with an ace flush, but someone with a king flush can be very hard to identify. (When you bet with the second nut flush it behooves the nut flush to raise - but when you bet with the third nut flush, although it still behooves the nut flush to raise, the 2nd nut flush is in a quandry).

A flop with (4) two spades, unless the ace and king are both included, is simply not playable when you have the queen draw. Period. It's a sucker play.

A flop with (5) 9-T-J will give you a straight but it’s not a nut straight, and even if nobody else happens to have KQ (about 50%), any card of nine or above on the turn or river enables a better hand, to say nothing of possible flushes with lower cards. In short a flopped non-nut queen high straight without re-draws is trash.

But at any rate, you do have the pair of queens and you'd like to see the flop. (And maybe it will have a pair of eights, making you quads, or the nine-ten-jack of spades, making you a straight flush, or even just the ace-king of spades without a pair). But you do recognize that you don’t have a very good starting hand. Right?

So if you want to end the session a winner and if you have good sense, you can't like it much when someone raises your blind. Are we in agreement about not wanting your blind raised when you hold a hand like QQ88 with a suited queen or worse?

If so, there are at least two issues here: (1) how to maximize your profit on this hand, and (2) how to maximize your profit on future hands when you post the blind.

Betting round #1:
How to (1) maximize your profit on this hand is easy. You fold to the raise. Your starting hand, basically a bare pair of queens, is not worth calling a raise, even though you’re getting 7 to 1 pot odds to call.

How to (2) maximize your profit on future hands when you post the blind is not as clear. If re-raising will keep people from attacking your blind in the future, then a re-raise here is not a bad play.

So if that’s the reason you re-raised on the first betting round, to keep people from attacking your blind in the future, and if the person who raised your blind isn’t someone who always raises from early position with a pair of aces (a fairly common tactic) I like your re-raise. But if you re-raised because you thought you had a better starting hand than you do, or for some macho reason, then I don’t like the re-raise. And it you didn’t recognize that the person who raised very possibly had a hand with a pair of aces, then I also don’t like the re-raise.

But if you did recognize the person who raised your blind from early position very possibly had a pair of aces, and if you raised to deter some other opponent from raising you off your blind in the future, then I still like the re-raise.

What I’m saying is there’s more involved here than just the current hand. Your table image is involved, and you don’t want to be seen as “weak.”

At any rate you raised, and without knowing your motive, it’s hard to evaluate the raise.

Betting round #2
You have completely missed the flop. Playing Texas hold ‘em, your pair of queens as an over-pair to the non-paired flop would be quite strong. In Omaha-8 for this particular 6s 9d 4s flop you want a hand something like As-2s-3d-5d. There are some other playable hands as well. Or, if your eights were nines, you could see another card. However, your over-pair of queens simply does not constitute a fit with this flop in Omaha-8. You should check and fold to a bet.

Betting round #3
Check-raising when you turn a set of queens is not a bad play for Texas hold ‘em when you have an aggressive opponent following you who you expect will bet. And it also has value, but less so, in Omaha-8. I’d just bet the set of queens if I was still in the hand at this point, but okay, going for the check-raise here seems fine too.

Betting round #4
Yikes, an ace on the river. Low is enabled but you don’t have anything for low. Plus, you really should be reading your opponent for catching a set of aces on the river. I don’t know what to advise you to do here. I try to stay out of these spots. At this point it should be very clear to you why playing an overpair of queens after a 6s 9d 4s flop in Omaha-8 is fraught with peril.

[ QUOTE ]
But i want to know how you will play the winning hand (As Ac 9s 6h )

preflop-flop-turn-river(raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop: Depends on the situation. Sometimes I’ll raise with it from UTG and sometimes not.

flop: Again it depends on the situation. Usually I’ll play it primarily as the nut flush draw. The pair of aces isn’t worth much after this flop (but neither is the pair of aces worthless), but the nut flush draw is nice. From UTG I might check and call, or, with enough opponents I might bet.

turn: I’d want to see the river as cheaply as possible.

river: The set of aces has turned out to be the stone cold nuts for high. When I have the stone cold nuts for high on the river, only one opponent, and cannot be quartered for high, I can't think of a situation where I would do anything but raise. (Well... if my own mother, God bless her, was still alive, _maybe I wouldn't raise her - but otherwise...)

Buzz

[Gahnia radula]

[ QUOTE ]
river: The set of aces has turned out to be the stone cold nuts for high. When I have the stone cold nuts for high on the river, only one opponent, and cannot be quartered for high, I can't think of a situation where I would do anything but raise. (Well... if my own mother, God bless her, was still alive, _maybe I wouldn't raise her - but otherwise...)



[/ QUOTE ]

I would think less of you if you DIDN'T raiser her

Gahnia radula

[jedi]

Hey Buzz,

You're one hell of a tutor. Maybe I can come up to LA and play some Omaha with you one of these days. You think you can make it back down to 3/6?

[Epix]

#Buzz

first of all thanks for the nice comment.

For the first the player there raise preflop have done that all night with pocket Aces, and i know that he's normal game is Holdem, when he raise on preflop i know only way to win this pot is get H2H on this person and hope for a Q or 8's on flop or turn and no Aces.
But normaly, i will not play my Q-Q-8-8 in a omaha 8/HI but only for the reason of i did know, he always raise pocket pair A-A and A-2 and he is a holdem player.
and a second thing is, i think hes hand is so weak because he is missing the deuces or 3in his hand and it is not a double suit, i preffer a fold on this hand preflop.
A-A-2-3 or K double suit is the two best hand in omaha 8/hi.
But i know that my mistake in this hand is play it in Omaha 8/HI.


Epix [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Buzz]

Thanks, Jedi.

I like 3/6. And I like helping people. Be happy to see you if you get to L.A.

Buzz

[schwza]

correct me if i'm wrong, but it's generally just called omaha 8 or omaha 8/b, right? cause i thought you were asking how play the hand in the two games of omaha 8 and omaha (high only) for most of the thread.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
A-A-2-3 or K double suit is the two best hand in omaha 8/hi.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, no. The two best hands in O/8 are AA23DS and AA24DS. AAKKDS is way down on the list of best hands.

[Beavis68]

All the AA2x AA3x AA two wheel - A23x A234 A-3wheel cards are in the tops, regardless of suits, AAKK is playable, but you have to hit pretty well to scoop. At least according mt my lists.

Tiltboy, tell tallphil he is a class act for me.