#11
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
[ QUOTE ]
I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice. [/ QUOTE ] You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you. The reason I discount the other out completely is that takes up the partial dirty out plus the possibility that someone may be holding a J. Mind you, should you see the turn, and the flush J hit, you're not auto-folding to a bet especially if the BB is the one betting. Tough spot to be in, actually. [ QUOTE ] When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often). [/ QUOTE ] BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand. I think it's a close decision overall. b |
#12
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice. [/ QUOTE ] You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you. [/ QUOTE ] But if it goes for 2 bets with only BB and button playing the risk for a flush is not that bad (it would almost have to be AsKs or AsQs, and high PPs are more probable). MP calling changes things. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often). [/ QUOTE ] BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. But if the button and MP are not totally hopeless they will also know BB has a power hand. So getting 1 SB is far from impossible (if for example button has AK), and even if the chance is smallish it helps your odds. For example if the price is - 30% 1 SB - 50% 2 SB - 20% 3-4 SB I have odds even if I were to fold to a BB 3bet (which I am not sure if I would do even with MP calling - but a cap sucks in that situation). [ QUOTE ] I think it's a close decision overall. [/ QUOTE ] I can agree with that. |
#13
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a close decision overall. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I think so too, that’s why I posted this hand. Also I was multitabling several good tables at the time and couldn’t put as much thought into my decisions at this table as I wanted to. [ QUOTE ] BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you (uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand. [/ QUOTE ] Although the aggressive player behind me has 3 bet preflop for the first time, I don’t think it is necessarily uncharacteristic – I haven’t played many hands with him. I put him on a typical 3 betting range here, perhaps a little wider. In retrospect he may have been tilty after really pushing some hands earlier that he lost. At the time of the hand I thought the flop would go 2 bets, as it did, but that the turn would only cost me a bet to continue since BB is so passive. I completely did not expect the BB to check-raise the turn, and it freaked me out. I really rushed my decision here, and I thought another Q would give me trips to beat the supposed AA/KK of the BB, which with the gutter outs and implied odds should justify a call. MP1 could have anything that is remotely related to the board, 2 random spades are definitely a possibility, as well as JT. Button could have AKs or AQs, or even trip tens. So hitting another Q may not be an out. Throughout the hand I don’t think I was adequately discounting my outs. If I don't fold the flop I think the turn is definitely a fold. Looking at the hand now I like folding the flop best. It could definitely go 3 or 4 bets, my position stinks, and I may be facing flush and house redraws (or higher straight draws) even if I improve. Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand? |
#14
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
[ QUOTE ]
Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand? [/ QUOTE ] If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it. b |
#15
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot.
Even if you flop a draw, like you did sort of did, you're sandwiched inbetween the 2 preflop agressors and are going to have to pay a lot of bets to draw. This is not a good spot for KQs, I let this go to the PF cap. lf |
#16
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart). Limping with K,Qs, online, utg, is probably a better play than raisng.
The rest of the hand is straight forward although I probably bet the turn. Vince |
#17
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
Fold PF. If not, Fold the flop. If not there, fold the turn.
Tex |
#18
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results
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart). [/ QUOTE ] Originally I thought that getting 7:1 on the last 2 bets going in gave good enough odds to call, but I ran thru some simulations with likely hands and it isn’t enough. I agree I should have laid this down before the flop. [ QUOTE ] If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it. [/ QUOTE ] In the actual hand I folded the river. Here are the results: River: (18.86 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font> <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls. Final Pot: 20.86 BB BB shows [ Js, Qs ] two pairs, queens and nines. MP1 doesn't show [ Tc, 6c ] two pairs, tens and nines. Button doesn't show [ 4d, 4s ] two pairs, nines and fours. Button left the table after this hand, BB stuck around and played like a passive calling station for another hour before he left. I'm still amazed he capped preflop. |
#19
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Re: results
[ QUOTE ]
BB bets, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls. [/ QUOTE ] What! Wow did I miss that. Horrible fold. Vince |
#20
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Re: they play bad, do I play worse?
preflop: overly aggressive but not horrible as long as you're not always capping with this hand...
flop: don't like it. raise this and get the others to fold - clean up your outs a little. You've still got a pretty good hand here - four outs to the nuts and six more outs to TP...you played this too passively. turn - it's checked to you - LEAD! Make any diamonds pay for their draw. If you run into KJ/J8 - oh well - you still have a few outs to chop. river - well, i certainly don't like a bet now with on all-in. I don't think you're making a better hand fold, so check/fold to a bet. Ah...thought the OP was the one capping - fold preflop. If not, fold on the flop. |
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