Weak 1 and 2 gappers suited in blinds...

Hello everybody,


I want to ask the forum a question relating to a situation I find myself in frequently (I play a lot). I usually play 15-30 and 20-40 and hold my own winning more than losing. I am tight agressive in my play. I have read many poker/holdem books but here is a situation (IMO) has not been covered very well in most of them. It involves being suited in the blinds with weak 1 and 2 gappers. (hmmm, how do I ask this so it is easy for you to reply)


First let me define the type of hands I am referring to: (I will omit Ace-little suited as I will play that multiway for a SB call or one raise from my BB if pot is multiway)


I am referring to hands like 35s, 46s, 57s, 58s, 68s, 69s, 108s, 107s etc etc etc - you know what I mean (I hope).


What are the guidelines for calling with these hands?


[1] If in SB and there are many limpers and it is half the BB to call (I will automatically call if SB is 2/3 BB and no raise) should I call? How many limpers do I need?


[2] If in SB or BB with these types of hands and it is raised once from late position preflop with many limpers/callers so I anticipate a multiway pot what should I do? Again how many players seeing the flop do I need?


[3] What if it was 3 bet pre in a very loose game and many (5+) players call the 3 bet and you are in the SB or BB?


I have seen players (some very good players too) in the blinds call with these types of hands in multiway pots and win huge pots. They are easy hands to get away from if the flop doesnt connect but in terms of implied odds do these hands have +EV or -EV longterm?


Sorry, this has turned out to be a more complex question than I intended (too many questions/scenarios) but I hope you know where I am coming from. I am sure all regular players get these type of hands in the blinds often and I'd appreciate your views on how to play them.


I love this forum and the opportunity to pick the brains of some (obviously) good players.


Thanks again.


Rose

OK, here's how I handle these, usually.


If there is no raise, I always play them, except 25s. That's easy. With a 2/3 SB, 25s gets played.


If there's a raise, I almost never play them from the SB. I would never play with 2 gaps from the SB for a raise. With 1 gap, it would take 4 opponents, 5 if the players are very aggressive.


From the BB, I would play a 1 gapper with 3 opponents for a raise, or 2 opponents if I think they are raising weak or I can easily manipulate them and they are not super tight. I wil play the better 1 gaps against a possible steal heads up. A 2 gapper would take 4-5 opponents.


It would take many opponents, probably 6, to play a 1 gapper for 3 bets, but if you never did, you wouldn't miss out much. There will just be too much action, you'll have to beat an overpair and are likely to get outflushed. For 3 bets, being in the BB or SB doesn't matter much. It can also get taken to 4 bets.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

Thanks Dan, we are very close in our thinking. Look forward to replies from others. This kind of hand/play can often make the difference between a winning and losing session when you hit the flop or a decent draw.


Take care,


Rose

"This kind of hand/play can often make the difference between a winning and losing session ..."


If you allow me to cut your sentence short, and substitute "life" for "session," then I agree. :-)


In a 4/8-chip game, I don't see the flop with any of those hands unless it's a free-play from the BB.


Tommy

Tommy-


You really think these hands from the bb are decisions which affect a lifetime's worth of results? It seems to me that as long as you're getting close to the right number of players, and you stay on your toes for further potential pre-flop raising, it shouldn't be significant one way or another. Provided you play these hands well after the flop.

Kevin,


"It seems to me that as long as you're getting close to the right number of players, and you stay on your toes for further potential pre-flop raising, it shouldn't be significant one way or another. Provided you play these hands well after the flop."


Sounds to me like you're saying that if we do everything perfectly every time, we can maybe break even on these hands. Oddly, what you intended as a defense of these hands looks to me like a strong case for folding them.


Tommy

I have the same question as the post, and now I am more confused than ever! Some of the responses sound like they think it is NEVER right to play these hands???? When can you play them for a profit? When should they not be played? Excatly which hands can be played under what circumstances? Am I to surmise from these answers that you can only play AK, AQ and big pocket pairs?

I might be wrong, but as I stated in an above response I don't think this is a significant problem (at least from the big blind). One thing I look for is where the raise comes from. For instance, if the raise came from the button then I'm more inclined to fold pre-flop if I feel the decision is close. Not only can it get re-raised pre-flop, but many players tend to check to the raiser after the flop which can make your hand more difficult to play. But I don't think you should sweat the small stuff as in, I'll play a 6-way pot but not 5, etc.

Kevin,


It's natural that we would disagree on particulars because we don't agree on a premise. For me, it is a significantly costly to play these hands out of the blinds, it doesn't matter how many players.


"But I don't think you should sweat the small stuff as in, I'll play a 6-way pot but not 5, etc."


Wouldn't this reasoning lead to playing these hands every time, even heads up and three-way?


As to sweating small stuff, the "sum of edges" concept implies that what matters most is precisely the small stuff.


Tommy

"Wouldn't this reasoning lead to playing these hands every time, even heads up and three-way?"


Not at all. I did not mean to imply that discretion isn't important.


"As to sweating small stuff, the "sum of edges" concept implies that what matters most is precisely the small stuff."


I agree with this. If you make too many bad decisions it adds up to be meaningful. But I also like what Mason has to say about pre-flop decisions and I hope I'm not taking him out of context here. Basically, the bulk of $$ is made after the flop. The pre-flop decision of whether 12 to 1 odds is enough in the bb with a hand like 8h,7h, but 10 to 1 is not, is nowhere near as important as the decision of what you'll do if the flop comes Ac,8s,3h or the SM classic-->> Ah,5c,4s. This post-flop decision is MUCH more important than whether or not you call pre-flop. IMO-