why am i always in these spots?

PokerBob · #1 12-08-2005, 09:03 PM

SB here is an idiot. he likes to run his mouth and is 50/10/1.8. BB is a fishy (45/5/1). 3-better i know nothing about.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (15 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (28 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero does huh?

POKhER · #2 12-08-2005, 09:09 PM

So button 3bets preflop, Caps the flop, and raises turn... man he must have a monster or hes AGGRESSIVE.

I mean, Doesn't AA take a breather after the flop cap? KK doesn't.

Then SB donk 3bets the turn, T7? Two pair?

Then he bets river... and BB raises out of the blue. Bleh i'm calling but this is crazy with a huge pot and button to act behind.

Would i want to pay 4BB to see a SD? Probably not.. But i guess im paying 2 and hoping i dont pay 4.

WordWhiz · #3 12-08-2005, 09:13 PM

You're in this spot because of your flop play. The pot is huge, and a set of sixes is not an invulnerable monster on this board against 4 opponents. There are two straights draws and a flush draw available. Try to win this thing now. That means either betting out on the flop, so that the rest of the field faces two cold when Button raises, or just call button's raise and then pump the turn to keep the pot small enough so that the other 3 players aren't getting correct odds to hang around with gutshots, bdfd's, and other weak hands facing two cold on the turn.

With SB and BB both being idiots, it's tough to say what their bet/raise on the river means. It could be as stupid as a crappy two pair, but I'd guess at least one of them hit his JT gutshot.

Oh, and with the pot this huge, hero calls and prays.

jba · #4 12-08-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're in this spot because of your flop play. The pot is huge, and a set of sixes is not an invulnerable monster on this board against 4 opponents. There are two straights draws and a flush draw available. Try to win this thing now. That means either betting out on the flop, so that the rest of the field faces two cold when Button raises, or just call button's raise and then pump the turn to keep the pot small enough so that the other 3 players aren't getting correct odds to hang around with gutshots, bdfd's, and other weak hands facing two cold on the turn.

With SB and BB both being idiots, it's tough to say what their bet/raise on the river means. It could be as stupid as a crappy two pair, but I'd guess at least one of them hit his JT gutshot.

Oh, and with the pot this huge, hero calls and prays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with everything in this post, except the the part about BB having JT.

i'd fold it.

PokerBob · #5 12-08-2005, 09:24 PM

i can't really protect my hand.

27offsooot · #6 12-08-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i can't really protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i were to bet the flop it would be for value, b/c u will protect absolutely nothing, like u said. The idiots will call, but u can three bet. I'm not sure if flop c/r or b-3-bet is better, my guess is that c/r is best b/c a 3-bettor will almost always bet this flop in a huge pot but won't always raise.

Spicymoose · #7 12-08-2005, 09:37 PM

I like leading this flop. Button may have 3-bet, but if he has AQ, AJ, AT, QJs 77, 88, TT, JJ, QQ, he may decide to check the flop. This would be horrendous. Not all of those hands are entirely likely, but they are all possible. Furthermore, if we bet, and he has a hand that would have bet the flop, he usually will raise us. This doesn't really protect our hand too much, as people will draws will still be getting great odds on their draws. But, a benefit is that we can then 3-bet very often, and force people to pay. You got lucky here, and button 3-bet, allowing your cap, but this does not happen all that often.

27offsooot · #8 12-08-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading this flop. Button may have 3-bet, but if he has AQ, AJ, AT, QJs 77, 88, TT, JJ, QQ, he may decide to check the flop. This would be horrendous. Not all of those hands are entirely likely, but they are all possible. Furthermore, if we bet, and he has a hand that would have bet the flop, he usually will raise us. This doesn't really protect our hand too much, as people will draws will still be getting great odds on their draws. But, a benefit is that we can then 3-bet very often, and force people to pay. You got lucky here, and button 3-bet, allowing your cap, but this does not happen all that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make good points. I think it's close. I guess i think that I would bet almost any hand i three bet with on this flop in this size pot with these opponents. Many people would not though. I think pocket pairs almost always bet. Any chance of folding out hands drawing live in this pot with A high hands is a good thing. Perhaps hands like QJ i might check with, but i don't think they comprise much of villains range unless he's a maniac, which means he will bet anyway. Again, this is how i would play the flop checked to me. Smaller pot or really ugly flop, of course i'm not betting, but here i do.

I think it's close and depends on reads though.

27offsooot · #9 12-08-2005, 09:16 PM

tough one. only hand that makes sense for bb is J10. I really don't think he would raise this with KQ on the end given the previous action. That said, u could be behind to sb as well. But of course the pot is effing huge. It could be three bet and capped here and when it is u're pretty much never good.

so i say fold but i hate ed miller in these situations.

Spicymoose · #10 12-08-2005, 09:32 PM

I had to read that action I think 8 times, and I am still not exactly sure what happend. There is no way I would be able to follow all that action as it was happening, so in the heat of it, I would have to call getting 15:1, and hoping that someone is a huge idiot. If it was capped back to me, I woul have to fold though.

Looking at it a bit more rationally (if I can even do that), I would say that BB really looks like he has JTs. He will often call preflop, then he has to call on the flop with his gutshot becuase of pot size. On the turn he picks up a double gutter, so has to call some more. It looks odd for him to be calling 3 bets cold on the turn, and I think that has to be JT. On the river, he hits, and pounds! BB could also have QQ, and just be too stupid to cap preflop. Then he needs to peel a bunch for the same reason as SB...

...On top of BB, who almost certainly has JT, it looks like SB has 88. He called preflop, and then on the flop, pot was big, so he called the first bet to try and hit trips. When it comes back for two more, pot is even bigger, and he call again. When he hits, he goes for good old trusty check raise.

Then we still have the button to deal with. It would look like KK, except that he only called the 3-bet on the turn instead of capping, last to act. I guess he could have just been frightened by all that action, and seeming coordination of the board, or just spazzed out for some reason. More likely looks like AA. A hugely overdone AK could be possible, but not all that likely.

In summary, I the most likely holdings of BB crush you. SB probably has you beat as well. Luckily, you may get 3rd place, but even then, button could be stupid with his KK.

Pot is huge, but there are so many reasons to fold.