Tough river card your move?

#1 12-07-2005, 03:51 AM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Button was Semi-loose Passive/Aggressive. He would limp most of the time seeing about 33% of the flops but if he caught any piece of a flop or a pocket pair and he didn't think the flop helped anyone else he would get very agressive with it. A few hands prior he capped a KJx flop vs my AK with K9.

Is this river a Bet/Fold or a Check/Call or Check/Fold?

imported_smoove · #2 12-07-2005, 04:06 AM

Ugh. Any chance he was trying to be tricky limping with JJ-AA? I guess I bet and fold to a raise. Ugh.

W. Deranged · #3 12-07-2005, 04:16 AM

Well, check-calling sucks because he's so rarely ever betting a worse hand that basically every time you're calling it's going to be paying off a better hand.

So it's down to bet-folding and check-folding. I have a hard time thinking of a range of hands that has you ahead enough to merit voluntarily putting any money in on this river.

So check and hope he checks behind an inferior hand. Fold if he bets. The board is so scary I don't think we need to worry too much about being bluffed out here without a specific read to suggest that's a fear.

SlyGuy · #4 12-07-2005, 04:45 AM

You would fold after him calling down the flop cap? You do have a flush. A 10, 2, and 99 beat you, am i missing something here?

silkyslim · #5 12-07-2005, 05:26 AM

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You would fold after him calling down the flop cap? You do have a flush. A 10, 2, and 99 beat you, am i missing something here?

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ya im confused whats the big deal with bet/folD?

belloc · #6 12-07-2005, 11:19 AM

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So check and hope he checks behind an inferior hand. Fold if he bets. The board is so scary I don't think we need to worry too much about being bluffed out here without a specific read to suggest that's a fear.

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Will,

The flop action screams something like top two to me (I don't remember seeing lots of flop caps at 2/4 with flush draws, but maybe that's changed). The turn call is confusing. Either he has a T, but is a weak player and scared of the flush, or he simply doesn't have a T. It's hard to put him on a hand that would cap that flop but not like that turn card.

I think I want to see a showdown here, so I don't think check/call is a bad line. Bet/fold is next, since a raise here is usually enough to tell me he has it. Check/fold just doesn't seem right here; the turn action is just too confusing to let him get away for free.

#7 12-07-2005, 05:33 AM

The flop pretty much played itself.

The Turn I make my hand which is nice but the board also paired top pair which is not so nice regardless I have to follow through with a bet. The fact that he just called on the turn was somewhat reassuring since I felt if he had a T he probably would have raised me again unless he had T9 or TT. It also makes me think he doesnt have 99 since I don't think he will just smooth call here. So I figure his most likely hands are K9 A9 QJ KJd or a pocket pair QQ JJ and maybe 88 and 22. However I cant rule out the fact that he has a better flush now and the board pairing scared him.

The river I obviously hate but he might hate it just as much as me so I figure why not Bet/Fold. I am trying to break a habit of mine which is check calling too many rivers and instead if I am willing to call the river with my hand just bet it instead and fold if raised. I figure there is also the chance with that river that if I was beat on the turn by 99 or a higher flush he might fold. Although very unlikely there is a chance he might fold one of those specific hands that beat me.

Result he obviously called which I forgot to take out of my original post and showed A9o with the A of diamonds and my flush held up.

crunchy1 · #8 12-07-2005, 11:18 AM

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The flop pretty much played itself.

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I think the flop is the worst street in the hand.

You give this read:
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He would limp most of the time seeing about 33% of the flops but if he caught any piece of a flop or a pocket pair and he didn't think the flop helped anyone else he would get very agressive with it.

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The key here is in bold and, IMO, typical of this player type at 2/4. He's not betting without a piece of the flop here. Much less - he's not raising without a decent piece of the flop. Everyone in between folded to Villian's raise. You don't have the equity HU to be 3-betting a weak flush draw and 2-undercards against the range of hands that he'd play this way. Bet/Call the flop next time.

Turn is standard. Bet/folding the river against this player sounds like a good line. Check/Folding doesn't seem good here because with his higher post-flop aggression and the read you gave I think he's going to bet this river with almost any two cards if you check to him. You'll probably be folding the best hand a decent amount of the time for 1BB in a decent sized pot.

Given his tendency to bet when checked to check/calling doesn't seem like a horrible line either. We may get him to bet a worse hand that he wouldn't have called with (maybe busted overcards with a high diamond). I can also see taking this line if for some other read-based reason you'd have a difficult time betting and folding to a raise.

damaniac · #9 12-07-2005, 11:26 AM

On the flop he has an OESD to go with his flush draw, which gives him an equity edge HU against top pair/overcard hands.

crunchy1 · #10 12-07-2005, 12:07 PM

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On the flop he has an OESD to go with his flush draw, which gives him an equity edge HU against top pair/overcard hands.

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If he has an edge - it's very slim. We're out of position against an aggressive player who we can be sure hit the flop in some way (given the OP's read). We're most certainly going to need to imporve to win, Villian is going to make us pay to get there and we have zero chance of taking down the pot UI.

In previous hands, according to the OP's read, Villian was aggressive when the other players had shown weakness. In this hand Villian is being aggressive after Hero has shown an interest in the pot. I think that taking this into consideration removes (or at least discounts) those overcard hands you mention from his range (and it won't take much to get Hero's equity down to 50% or lower once we start narrowing the range that Villian will raise the flop with).

If there is value in 3-betting the flop - it's slim. I don't think we (and I'm not accusing you of) should be referring to it as a standard play.