Evolution #9

[RJT]

I assume most folk here (especially most atheist) believe in evolution. I think (from the little I know about it) the theory is a good one (and not incompatible with Christianity, btw).

My questions have nothing to do with religion (indirectly I guess they do, but not my main reason for asking).

1) Why have we evolved into our present state - I.e. self-awareness, state of our intellect, emotional beings - as opposed to for example, strictly intellectual beings with no emotion?

2) Are we evolving on the right path? Or somewhere along the line did we take a wrong turn and now, because we are capable of surviving for who knows how long, we can’t get on the path that might have been a better one?

3) If we took a wrong path, can we find evidence of one that could have been better for us?

4) If we took the wrong path and can’t get back on one that would have been better - would it be better for humans to become extinct, so that a more correct evolutionary path get going?

5) If evolution is a river that we cannot divert, why is that? I am thinking more in terms of intellectually diverting evolution rather than through genetics, but not excluding genetics.

6) If we can direct our own evolution, how can we?

7) What are some ideas of what we are evolving into?

If these are all basic questions regarding evolution, let me know and I will do more research myself. The little I know about it has never talked much about the intellect relative to evolution and possible self directing (as a species, not individually) evolution.

[Zeiros]

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I assume most folk here (especially most atheist) believe in evolution. I think (from the little I know about it) the theory is a good one (and not incompatible with Christianity, btw).

My questions have nothing to do with religion (indirectly I guess they do, but not my main reason for asking).


1) Why have we evolved into our present state - I.e. self-awareness, state of our intellect, emotional beings - as opposed to for example, strictly intellectual beings with no emotion?


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2) Are we evolving on the right path? Or somewhere along the line did we take a wrong turn and now, because we are capable of surviving for who knows how long, we can’t get on the path that might have been a better one?


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There is no such thing as the 'right' path with evolution. It is nothing more than natural selection.

As a very artificial example imagine a cave full off two species. Owls and mice. The owls eat the mice to live, the mice try to hide from the owls to survive. Over many years, the mice that blend most closely to the colour of the floor will be most likely to survive and reproduce and so most mice will gradually change to become the same colour as the cave. If, one day, the cave were to spontaneously change colour then over the next few million years the mice would begin to change colour again to match the new cave.

A contrived example I know, but it serves to illustrate a point. Natural selection is a blind force that acts in the direction of what is beneficial at the current time. Of course, if evolution were guided or premeditated then we would probably work in a much more efficient way than we do now. We would be sleek, streamlined and efficient. As it happens animals are pretty unwieldy creatures. Just look at the appendix in humans, hip bones in whales, wings on the ostrich, the lists of useless bits in animals go on and on.

Evolution is a messy process, it often leaves marks of adaptations and failures, but it always produces animals that can survive as best as possible in the prevailing conditions.

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3) If we took a wrong path, can we find evidence of one that could have been better for us?


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See answer to number two.

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4) If we took the wrong path and can’t get back on one that would have been better - would it be better for humans to become extinct, so that a more correct evolutionary path get going?


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See answer to number three.


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5) If evolution is a river that we cannot divert, why is that? I am thinking more in terms of intellectually diverting evolution rather than through genetics, but not excluding genetics.


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We can divert evolution rather easily. Selective breeding.

Let me illustrate with another artificial example. I have a field full of cows. I want to sell the cows to be slaughtered for food. For this reason I make a point of picking the biggest bull every year and breeding him with all of the females. If I repeat this process over many years, never mixing in any other cattle, my cows will get bigger and bigger. If we repeat this for a few thousand years I'll end up with super-massive cows that look so different from every other cow on the planet that they will be classed as their own species.

Anything that acts to change which members of a species reproduce influences evolution.

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6) If we can direct our own evolution, how can we?


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See answer to number five. Google the word eugenics to find people who have thought of the human species in this way.

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7) What are some ideas of what we are evolving into?


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Looking at the world today, I really don't know. Natural selection drives animals that survive most efficiently to reproduce more.

A human society faces selection effects that are vastly different to those ever seen before in the history of the Earth.

You no longer need to be strong and able to fend for yourself in the wilderness to survive. You no longer need to have four fully working limbs to reproduce and survive. You no longer need to even be mentally competitive to reproduce.

Civilization has changed evolutionary pressures greatly, and I'd like to know what is coming next!

[FlFishOn]

"2) Are we evolving on the right path? "

For all practical purposes human evolution has ended. The unfit freely contribute their genes to the pool. The most fit seem to have no reproductive advantage, in fact in western society the most fit tend to reproduce at the lowest rates. Perhaps that's evolution after all, just not forward going.

[chezlaw]

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"2) Are we evolving on the right path? "

For all practical purposes human evolution has ended. The unfit freely contribute their genes to the pool. The most fit seem to have no reproductive advantage, in fact in western society the most fit tend to reproduce at the lowest rates. Perhaps that's evolution after all, just not forward going.

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evolutionary fitness is not the same as your personal view of the most fit.

chez

[Zeiros]

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"2) Are we evolving on the right path? "

For all practical purposes human evolution has ended. The unfit freely contribute their genes to the pool. The most fit seem to have no reproductive advantage, in fact in western society the most fit tend to reproduce at the lowest rates. Perhaps that's evolution after all, just not forward going.

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I kind of hinted at this point in a roundabout way in my first post, and it is somewhat worrying.

I guess the way I look at this is that we have removed the traditional evolutionary pressures (being fit, being clever, being cunning, etc.) and replaced them with something else.

On the surface it is a pretty depressing thought; how will humanity ever move forward without this powerful, selective force pushing it. Either we will stagnate and regress or the forces will come from somewhere else. Somewhat surprisingly, a journalist at MSNBC wrote a story about this very subject that is both thoughtful and insightful (here). The short of it is that already in the present day we are beginning to be moulded by technology and this process will continue.

Naturally some of the ideas in the article sound like scienmce fiction but both nature and humanity are very resourceful, so lets just wait and see what happens.

Well, we'll all be dead and buried by then, but let's just imagine we can wait and see what happens...

[RJT]

“Well, we'll all be dead and buried by then, but let's just imagine we can wait and see what happens... “

That’s one of the nice thing about believing in an afterlife - I will be able to see what happens. Joking of course about “seeing” what happens.

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"2) how will humanity ever move forward without this powerful, selective force pushing it?

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Surely if we have evolved to the stage where everyone is so fit that there is no question of survival of the fittest this can only be a good thing. Survival of the fittest implies that there are the unfit; surely a world without the unfit is the most desirable to live in.

Also something that just came in to my head is the concept that perhaps in the western world evolution has come to a halt as a result of medicine and general high standards of living, but this mustn't be the case in the developing world, where surely certain genetic traits mean the difference between life and death. Wouldn't this imply that that people in the poorer parts of the world such as Africa would be evolving at a greater rate than the rest of us? Just a thought, but surely there is some sense to it.

[Zeiros]

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"2) how will humanity ever move forward without this powerful, selective force pushing it?

Surely if we have evolved to the stage where everyone is so fit that there is no question of survival of the fittest this can only be a good thing. Survival of the fittest implies that there are the unfit; surely a world without the unfit is the most desirable to live in.

Also something that just came in to my head is the concept that perhaps in the western world evolution has come to a halt as a result of medicine and general high standards of living, but this mustn't be the case in the developing world, where surely certain genetic traits mean the difference between life and death. Wouldn't this imply that that people in the poorer parts of the world such as Africa would be evolving at a greater rate than the rest of us? Just a thought, but surely there is some sense to it.

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Firstly, my question was kind of rhetorical. Obviously humanity will continue to evolve, I was just trying to distill a lot of thoughts into one convenient question I could discuss.

You raise a very interesting point by mentioning Africa. My gut feeling would be that you are quite right, and that in somewhere like Africa the rate of change of the human genome (for somebody more versed in the field: is there a measure of how fast a genome is changing? say, dG/dt?) is a lot higher than in a modern Western country

I guess that if we were to observe over a long enough timescale that the 'dG/dt' (however that may be defined) would be related closely to the infant mortality rate or to the average lifespan.

Would somebody who thinks they will have enough spare time in the afterlife investigate this for me?

disclaimer: this isn't my field. I do astrophysics by trade. 72Hearts speaks very coherently so I'd suggest reading his posts!

[pc in NM]

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"2) Are we evolving on the right path? "

For all practical purposes human evolution has ended. The unfit freely contribute their genes to the pool. The most fit seem to have no reproductive advantage, in fact in western society the most fit tend to reproduce at the lowest rates. Perhaps that's evolution after all, just not forward going.

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The genes that survive are, by definition, are "the most fit".

That's the "thing" about evolution - it's merely a descriptive explanation about the descent of species; its not a value-laden theory - there's no "better" or "worse"....

[RJT]

I understood evolution to be basically about natural selection, like you all have said. I guess I assumed (hoped) there was more to it.

If it is only that, then since we have evolved into beings that basically have the ability to survive viz a viz other predatory species then why aren’t we done evolving? I understand evolution to be a never ending process. In fact just this evening on the news, scientists at the U of Chicago (fairly sure it was there) think the human brains are still evolving. If we are still evolving then for what reason? Seems we haven't stopped evolving.

Besides, I find it hard to believe that human evolution has ended. How can it just stop after billions of years?

Also, why did we evolve into being with emotions?

I will do your recommended google search, but really I was thinking more in terms of steering evolution through thought process.

Btw, way I guess I used the wrong word - I didn’t mean the right path, so much as a different and perhaps better path.

Thanks for you post.