the soft bigotry of low expectations

[adios]

Is the president right about this stating that this is what affirmative action amounts to more or less? I think he's dead on the money. In other countries the euphemism, affirmative action, is referred to positive discrimination. It certainly is a form of discrimination. More importantly I think it's tremendously demeaning in the way it's applied most of the time. There isn't a doubt in my mind that the gender groups and racial groups that "benefit" from affimative action are just as capable in the aggregate of achievement as those that affirmative action discriminates against.

[jdl22]

AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so.

[MMMMMM]

"AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so."


I think this was true long ago but has no longer much merit.

Specifically, if I am running a business I want the most capable people I can find and afford to be working for me because otherwise my competitors will get them.

In the old days, there was a lot less competition around in business, and businesses were more contrained by local conditions. The "old boys" network flourished in a somewhat closed environment without much competition in some industries. Now the key to success is to be competitive, competitive, competitive. There is not the same kind of room for making less than optimal hiring decisions as there used to be.

[Clarkmeister]

I think your view is terribly naive. It looks great on paper, but in reality it just doesn't hold water. Now that doesn't mean that AA is the ideal solution to the problem, but to think that there doesn't still exist a serious problem is IMO a big mistake.

[MMMMMM]

Well I don't think there is a serious discrimination problem now. I think there used to be a serious problem, but I think the problem is by now quite mild.

Many people argue that there must be still a serious discrimination problem because group results are not yet equal. But this is based on the presumption that group results necessarily would be equal if not for discrimination. Not questioning that presumption is a serious logical error.

Asians currently outperform white Americans scholastically, and earn more on average than whites as well, right here in America. Does that imply that whites are the victims of discrimination compared to Asians?

[adios]

If an NFL owner prefers a retread white coach to an otherwise capable black coach that by all indications is eminently more qualified, wouldn't that NFL owner be shooting himself in the foot more or less? But that's outright bigotry. Affirmative action gives preference based on such things as race or gender to those who are otherwise less qualified and/or have acheived less than someone else that is white and/or male.

[Victor]

The NFL rule is simply that a franchise must interview a black candidate. They are not (at least publicly) coerced into hiring one or penalized for rejecting one. The just have to go through the motions.

[jokerswild]

Very naive, at best. If you think the color line no longer exists, then you live in never never land.
More to the point , what is "long ago". American apartheid wasn't even outlawed until 1964. That is very recent.

Considering how you hate Muslims, I think giving you the benefit of the doubt is wrong.

Here is a good example. Discrimination occured when c- students like Geoge W.Bush were accepted to Harvard Business School over much more qualified minority applicants because his family had political influence.

[MMMMMM]

"Very naive, at best. If you think the color line no longer exists, then you live in never never land."

I don't think it no longer exists, I think it is by now pretty minimal.

"More to the point , what is "long ago". American apartheid wasn't even outlawed until 1964. That is very recent."

To me, 50 years is "long ago". I guess it isn't to you, though. 50 years is over two generations.

"Considering how you hate Muslims, I think giving you the benefit of the doubt is wrong."

I don't hate Muslims, I hate totalitarianism. To the degree that Islam fosters totalitarianism I think it needs reform.

Anyone who cannot see that there is a difference between hating, say, the totalitarianism of the Soviet system, or hating the Soviet people, just isn't very bright.

"Here is a good example. Discrimination occured when c- students like Geoge W.Bush were accepted to Harvard Business School over much more qualified minority applicants because his family had political influence."

There are countless examples of asything you care to look for.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

For instance take school admissions, are you stating that people who are academically qualified would not be admitted unless there was affirmative action? I think it's probably the other way around, people who are academically qualified are not being admitted when they should be because preference is given to those with less qualifications due to race and/or gender. This is what he's talking about when he refers to low expectations.