Terrorists on the Run

[Gamblor]

Has anybody else noticed that not a single suicide bombing has occured in Israel since the death of Abdel Aziz Rantisi?

[nicky g]

Probably more to do with the wall etc rather than the assassinations. If the assassinations had scared Palestinian militants into submission we wouldn;t have seen the murder of the settler family, for example.

[B-Man]

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Probably more to do with the wall etc rather than the assassinations.

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In that case I am sure you have changed your mind and now agree that the fence is justified, since it has saved lives and will continue to do so, right?

[nicky g]

Israel can build all the fences, security areas, buffer zones and kite flying parks it wants, for all I care, but it should do it on its side of the border, not kilometres in to the territories. Same goes for Gaza; if Israel is worried about attacks from Gaza it should build a buffer zone on its side of the border with Gaza, not between Gaza and Egypt. Then it could have all the buffer space it wanted without having to demolish large areas of an already vastly overcrowded densely crowded miserable refugee camp at great human cost to everyone, including IDF soldiers, involved. If the Israelis want to waste billions on such temporary solutions rather than addressing the real issues that's up to them, but they have no right to annexe Palestinian land, separate farmers from their crops and families from each other, demolish Palestinina homes and even fence off the West Bank from Jordan to do so etc. The objection to the wall has always been to its route, not to its existence.

[Gamblor]

How many times do you want to go over this?

The "Green Line" represents a cease-fire line between Jordan and Israel.

The Green Line was specifically, in the agreement, stated NOT to form any sort of political border.

The Oslo accords clearly state that any final border is to be determined through negotiations.

Don't let Palestinian propaganda, claiming that somehow THEY have exclusive right to this land get the best of you.

the objection to the wall has always been its route, not its existence

Is that why you called it an "apartheid" wall?

Flipping and flopping between positions whenever it suits you is not good debating practice.

[nicky g]

"The Green Line was specifically, in the agreement, stated NOT to form any sort of political border. "

So what? Neither Israel not Jordan have the right to detrmine the future or self-determination of the West Bank's population.

" Oslo accords clearly state that any final border is to be determined through negotiations. "

The final border. In the meantime Israel should respect the defacto border, which everyone recognises will be the rough guide for any final border should it ever occur in any case, and not prejudice negotiations by effectively annexing (more) large chunks of the West Bank.
Your position seems to be that Israel can do whatever the hell it likes with the West Bank regardless of the wishes of its population until some final status that it has pretty much zero intention of ever negotiating is implemented. Well if ISrael is to have the right to control the West Bank until then, it should in the mean time give those people legal rights as Israeli citizens.

[nicky g]

"the objection to the wall has always been its route, not its existence

Is that why you called it an "apartheid" wall? "

Wherever they put it I think it is a pretty stupid solution. But that isn't my main objection to it; ultimately, that's their decision. Imposing it on others should not be.

[MMMMMM]

Shortly before the Rafah incident, Arafat is publicly calling for Palestinians to utilize terror and reject any compromise that does not include full right of return.

Nicky, the problem is that no matter what Isaael does, Arafat and the terror orgs will never give up their goal of bringing about the "right of return" through force and terror. No two-state solution will be truly accepted by Arafat or Hamas et al. On Palestinian public television, Arafat calls the "right of return" a "sacred and inalienable right" and calls on Palestinians to ""find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God." He also says peace is possible, but obviously he means only if Israel accepts the "right of return". No doubt this speech is one reason the King of Jordan recently suggested Arafat should step down.

Article: by Khaled Abu Toameh May. 15, 2004

"Invoking a phrase from the Koran, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat on Saturday called on Palestinians to "terrorize" their enemy.

In a televised speech on the 56th anniversary of the "nakba" (the establishment of Israel), Arafat quoted a phrase from the Koran that tells Muslims to "find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God."

The phrase in the Koran refers to Muslims' wars against pagans. Arafat, however, also signaled that he was ready for peace when he referred to another phrase reading: "If they want peace, then let's have it."

Addressing the Israeli people, Arafat said: "I tell the Israeli people that our hand is extended to making the peace of the brave on this land."

Arafat said that no one in the entire world has the right to make concessions on the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. He also said that the Palestinians would not accept any plan to resettle the refugees elsewhere.

He said in his speech that the Israeli government could not exonerate itself from its moral, political and international responsibility for the tragedy that befell the Palestinian refugees.

"The right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes is a sacred and inalienable right that is internationally protected and endorsed," he said. "This right is heroically defended by the Palestinian people in the face of the Israeli occupation, colonization and against the Apartheid Wall of annexation and expansion and in defense of our Christian and Islamic sanctuaries."

Arafat concluded that the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land is doomed to failure and accused Israel of waging a war of genocide against the Palestinians. He said the Palestinian struggle would continue until the liberation of Jerusalem.

As Arafat was speaking, thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip took to the streets to mark "Nakba Day" by observing a two-minute silence and staging rallies and demonstrations. Senior PA officials and ministers were among the crowds.

During the rallies, Palestinian refugees raised placards with the names of more than 450 Arab villages that used to exist inside Israel before 1948. Many waved Palestinian flags and carried large keys that have become a symbol of the right to return.

In Ramallah, thousands gathered in the city center, waving flags and chanting, "No peace, No stability without the right of return." Children held up placards bearing the names of Arab villages from which their families originated.

Sakher Habash, a senior Fatah official and close aide to Arafat, told the demonstrators that there would never be peace without the establishment of a Palestinian state and the return of the refugees to their original homes.

In Nablus, some 5,000 demonstrators burned a cardboard model of an IDF tank, along with life-sized effigies of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, US President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair. "We say 'no' to all plans that deny the right of return," the demonstrators shouted.

Similar demonstrations were held in Kalkilya, Tulkarem, Jenin, Hebron and Bethlehem.

In Gaza City, at least 10,000 demonstrators gathered outside the Palestinian Legislative Council offices, carrying pictures of Arafat and keys to what used to be their homes. "The right of return is holy, we will return to our homeland," they chanted. Arafat's top aide, Tayeb Abdel Rahim, was at the head of the procession."
Article on Arafat Speech

[nicky g]

As for terrorising your enemy, it depends who he means. The Palestinians have a right to "terrorise" occupation and invasion forces. The Palestinians also do have a legally enshrined right to return; nevertheless it is clear that there will have to be be some sort of compromise on the issue. The Geneva accords which involved PA negotiators pretty much threw the entire right away.

Nonetheless, I also think Arafat should probably step down and has a record of saying incredibly unhelfpul things (not to mention his Israeli counterparts, but nevermind). However, a currently crappy political leadership is not an adequate reason to permanently deny people the right to self-determination or legal rights as citizens of any form of state.
I really have to do some work (he says after going back to add stuff [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

[Chris Alger]

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Arafat is publicly calling for Palestinians to utilize terror

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Where did he say "utilize terror?"

Why are you trying to use a quotation from 1300-year-old scripture to evoke suicide bombings against civilians?

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and reject any compromise that does not include full right of return.

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I can't find this in your article. Where is it?