Too aggressive?

imported_Jim C · #1 04-14-2005, 02:51 PM

Hello, I played this hand extremely aggressively. I'm wondering if it was too aggressive. After UTG's turn check, I figure I'm golden. How does this look to you guys? No read on UTG. CO is 33/12 but only 50 hands on him.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG caps, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, CO calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (20.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 32.16 BB ($190)

littlejohn · #2 04-14-2005, 02:58 PM

In clarkmeister spirit, I'm going to start replying (whether qualified or not...)

Odd hand. I think you got too aggressive on the river with the 3 bet. On the turn I put CO on a low set - then he becomes concerned that you have a bigger set after you raise him again. So on that read you're still behind on the river. Then...you get river checkraised by the UTG who I think now has a set of queens (although it would be odd flop and turn play for him if so). The CO calls along since it's a huge pot and his bottom set might still be good.

I think you took third in this hand - and I'd have probably slowed down either on the CO turn bet or the river check behind.

Clarkmeister · #3 04-15-2005, 01:53 AM

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In clarkmeister spirit, I'm going to start replying (whether qualified or not...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

I don't really like the turn raise. CO has weathered all sorts of heat and now is coming out firing? What exactly could UTG have that we are actually worried about that we need to drive out? No reason to raise the turn here. I'd call. 3-betting the river is borderline insane.

imported_Jim C · #4 04-15-2005, 05:59 PM

Thanks for all of these great replies. This hand really confused me, and I think it speaks to my current "stuckness".

UTG was completing his first lap at the table, but had been in most hands. I felt he might be a taz, the kind of guy who will go off for a lot of bets when he gets a pair of aces while playing A8o, so I was reluctant to back down from him. I had no respect for him at all. But then, even players you don't respect show big hands from time to time. How can you possibly know? It seems to me you can't, so you either pay too much on their good hands, or don't make a lot of bets on their (mostly) marginal hands. Am I looking at this wrong?

This hand illustrates a general problem I'm having. It seems to me that a tremendous amount of one's winnings comes from LAGs overplaying second best hands. These people on Party 3/6 are just horrible and could have anything. When do you slow down with a very good hand? When should you respect the (generally) unrespectable?

I have a similar issue with extremely passive players. Often, in a many-handed pot, some timid player will have a raggedy 2 pair, but will be afraid of a big hand given the amount of aggression I'm showing, and they'll just call all the way. Its hard to know where you stand with these players. I'd like to know how you guys think about this.

In this hand, UTG was way overplaying KQ offsuit, while CO flopped a set of 5's and played them timidly. Both players were playing outrageously. Maybe I was too. CO cold-calls a preflop raise from UTG with nobody else in the pot with 55? UTG caps with KQ? It goes downhill from there.

I'm winning 3/6 for 1.5BB/100, but I must be calling down too much and keeping my foot on the gas too much (like this example, maybe). In general, it seems to me that if many hands are more than 2 handed at showdown, one would want their W$@SD to be less than 50%. My WTSD and W$SD are 37.25/48.88, which are not in-line with other players here.

Please help me understand why the river 3 bet sucks or is borderline insane. If I have the best hand at showdown more than 33% of the time these are solid value bets. Same goes for the turn raise. I could be totally wrong, but I figured these were good value bets. A set happens a small percentage of the time, and AA or KK happen only one way.

In hindsight, should I have been more concerned with the CO and started calling down at some point?

My #1 issue: how do I determine a probability estimate that my hand is good, especially against these types of players.

I understand tactical betting and raising fairly well, I think, and I understand outs/odds/drawing when I'm pretty sure I'm behind.

What I struggle with is knowing when I'm behind.

Please, any thoughts would be tremendously appreciated!

Best,

Jim

Redeye · #5 04-15-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand illustrates a general problem I'm having. It seems to me that a tremendous amount of one's winnings comes from LAGs overplaying second best hands. These people on Party 3/6 are just horrible and could have anything. When do you slow down with a very good hand? When should you respect the (generally) unrespectable?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to say that there are LAGs at 3/6, although not nearly as prevalent as loose-passives. However, its pretty rare to encounter complete maniacs and many of these guys slow down when the bets get large on the turn and river. I think one way to spew a lot of money is over-estimating the aggressiveness of a given game and pay off too much with someone you think is a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a similar issue with extremely passive players. Often, in a many-handed pot, some timid player will have a raggedy 2 pair, but will be afraid of a big hand given the amount of aggression I'm showing, and they'll just call all the way. Its hard to know where you stand with these players. I'd like to know how you guys think about this.

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These guys are your baby in 3/6. Its fantastic when you raise preflop w/ AA and get called all the way to the river with some guys flopped two pair and he never puts in a raise once. Saves you a ton of money.

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand, UTG was way overplaying KQ offsuit, while CO flopped a set of 5's and played them timidly. Both players were playing outrageously. Maybe I was too. CO cold-calls a preflop raise from UTG with nobody else in the pot with 55? UTG caps with KQ? It goes downhill from there.

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The guy with the KQ is clearly a tard. I don't think the guy w/ 55 played it terribly, although he probably could have stuck in a 3-bet on the turn.

imported_Jim C · #6 04-15-2005, 08:37 PM

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I think one way to spew a lot of money is over-estimating the aggressiveness of a given game and pay off too much with someone you think is a LAG.

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I think I must be doing this. However, it seems that dice and taz players are really common on 3/6. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of outrageous bluffing by poor players in this game, much more than one would expect. Where do you draw the line? How do I improve my estimation of the aggressiveness and improve how often I'm calling down. I really think 3+BB/100 is totally attainable, but I'm having trouble getting the balance right to achieve this.

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I don't think the guy w/ 55 played it terribly, although he probably could have stuck in a 3-bet on the turn.

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The only thing that was terrible was entering the pot, in my opinion.

Thanks again,

Jim

brettbrettr · #7 04-14-2005, 03:00 PM

Considering you're not going to chase out the CO I don't know that I'd cap the flop after UTG raiser 3 bets. Turn looks good. River I think is ok, looks like UTG was on AQ or maybe KsQs so even though I hate capping again when this guy is still giving so much action, looks ok. Lord knows what CO has....A5? KQ?

crunchy1 · #8 04-14-2005, 03:01 PM

Reads would help. Although regardless of a read(s) - I think I'd be happy closing the action on the river after the first raise (especially with CO cold-calling in front on me).

shant · #9 04-14-2005, 03:07 PM

I would call the river closing the action.

spydog · #10 04-14-2005, 03:13 PM

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I would call the river closing the action.

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