Some thoughts

[Vehn]

While I've been reading and posting to this site daily for over a year, I usually try not to open my mouth a lot. My relative inexperience, having been playing for only a year, makes me not want to post "advice" a lot, especially when its frequently fairly clear what the correct course of action is given the information provided and I don't want to say something you can find in HEFAP or what I think Dynasty would say or something - I don't see the point most of the time; especially since at least half of the hands posted by others are either bad beat stories or just penis-waving. While I still think this a great site and a new player can learn a lot here, I feel the past few months in particular have "muddied the waters". It seems to me that there are several people who are novices or just poor players (or maybe even don't play at all, I can't even tell, as they solely post replys and never any of their own hands) who pantomime the same thing over and over on every thread - why, I don't know, I just think its really not necessary to give a stock answer that anyone who studies the game and is reasonable well read would know. Maybe this is partially my fault as I have been posting a couple hands a week on small stakes that are probably of little value, I dunno. I don't post a lot in the mid stakes forum, because, well, I don't really count my regular $8/$16 game as mid stakes and while I consider myself to be a decently strong, moderately winning player, I certainely could not be considered an expert. I don't know why I'm posting this really other than to stir up [censored] on a boring day I guess [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] but am curious to see if others agree with me, and maybe wake up the people to whom I'm refering to. All I know is I'm not enjoying reading this site as much recently, maybe I need to take a break from this forum or something.

[Homer]

Vehn, please name the posters you are referring to so that they (or we, if I am included [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ) can consider whether they should continue to post, and/or whether they should change their posting habits/style in order to participate in a more meaningful way. I feel that to create a post like this without pinpointing the posters you are referring to makes the thread much less valuable, since the people you are attempting to address may not even realize that they are being spoken to.

-- Homer

[marbles]

Vehn,
I've enjoyed your posts over the same timeframe you mention, so please don't take this the wrong way...

Here's how I read your post. You want to read lots of posts on the forum, but none of the following:
1. Bad beat stories.
2. Stories about big pots that may have made or wrecked a guy's year.
3. Hand advice from non-experts.
4. Any advice that cites the knowledge of published experts.

I'm just curious... Do you think your standards may be just a tad high for a public board? Yes, it sounds to me like you might need to take a break for a while.

[Ed Miller]

That's a good point. If the only "spam" that a well-known public forum with over 1500 members gets on a regular basis is the contribution of a few well-intentioned but relatively unintelligent or inexperienced posters... well, that's quite impressive.

[soda]

I get the most from this board when posting a hand or general theory that I have a question on and then feeding the thread. I do this by asking more questions within the thread in a timely manner and posting my thoughts about other's advice within the thread.

Actually, I just played this hand: Paradise $2/$4 game.

I'm in BB with Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . UTG+1 open raises, CO calls, I smooth call in BB. I do this for several reasons. Here are two:

1 - the UTG player is solid with normal raising hands and will auto bet any flop. I can then checkraise a favorable flop for me and check muck a bad flop. Three betting decreases my ability to do this.

2 - Deception is important in this game as the players are pretty good. A three bet in this spot gives away my hand.

The flop came:

2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

Good flop, I check UTG+1 bets, CO calls, I raise - call, fold. So far, so good. Turn is K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . I bet, UTG+1 raises. I fold.

I felt it very unlikely this player would raise a medium pocket pair JJ - 99 or so. Therefore, I considered this a standard play.

How do you feel about the preflop play and thinking? The checkraise on the flop? And, of course, the bet fold on the turn?

Thanks and good luck,

soda

[marbles]

I really, really don't like the smooth call preflop. Sure, deception is key, but why be deceptive just for the sake of being deceptive?

As for the rest of the hand, I'm just confused. Putting myself in the other guy's shoes, I certainly wouldn't put you on QQ, but is that a good thing? Combining your preflop call with your flop CR, you may be representing a set or overpair, but you could also have a flush or (less likely) straight draw. Regardless, he has no reason to think the king helped you and every reason to think it would scare you. He has to raise there, even if he's just playing JJ.

All in all, you seemed to spend your chips being tricky rather than getting the information you needed.

[soda]

I really, really don't like the smooth call preflop. Sure, deception is key, but why be deceptive just for the sake of being deceptive?

Ok, you really, really don't like the smooth call preflop. Why not? Please give me some reasoning.

I smooth called because the raiser figures to have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK or AQ. My QQ does not look very good to me. I do not think he would raise TT or lower in early position. And he is likely mucking KQ and AJ in early position. These educated guesses are based on his prior play and the statistics I have on his play - he actually plays slightly tighter than I do. No easy feat these days.

This, plus the auto bet on the flop by UTG+1 allows me to gain the missed bets preflop when the flop is to my liking and lose less when an Ace or King flops.

I would certainly three bet KK here as the only hand I fear then is AA, but with QQ I'm on the lower end of what he's probably holding. Of course, we do have a third player and my QQ figures to be better on average than his holding. He was a little too loose for the conditions in this game.

This third player being in the pot would, I suspect, be a boost for the argument to three bet preflop. The third player money, however, mostly goes to the UTG+1 raiser and I get a small percentage of that as my hand is usually weaker than his.

I'd be interested in hearing if you would three bet JJ here. And why/why not?

I like what you said about me possibly having a flush draw. This is very true. If he were to put me on a possible steal with a flush draw - he would still not raise me with AQ, but he would raise with AA, KK, AK, and possibly lower pairs QQ, JJ. You can add TT and 99 if you like, but I saw him open limp from middle with TT.

I bet if one were to figure out probabilities of his likely holdings and compare it to the pot odds I was getting to call 2 more BB or 1.75 if you think he'd check behind on the river some times - you'd find that the muck was +EV just based on numbers. If you add to it this player's tendencies of playing good cards and pushing strong hands - you'd find this an easy muck.

Anybody want to run the numbers on this? I'm pretty tired.

Thanks,

soda

[marbles]

Okay, I'll hit on a few of these points.

1. The situation is a little different now that you mention how tight he is preflop. I was going off of a "typical" 2/4 player, where he could have a bunch of hands that you could beat. Still, it looks like you're ahead of at least half of the hands he could have preflop, and the situation is ideal (big pair in a small field), so why not put more money in the pot?

2. Would I 3-bet preflop with JJ in the same situation? Maybe half the time. If the preflop raiser is a little looser, I'd almost always 3-bet preflop with JJ here.

3. One small value to the 3-bet: If he doesn't cap preflop, you can very comfortably assume that he does not have AA or KK, and likely does not have AKs (potentially valuable information). Again, this is assuming a "typical" 2/4 player.

4. By 3-betting, you show strength, and he's less likely to get tricky for the sake of getting tricky later in the hand. Think if you 3-bet preflop, then lead the flop and turn. Now his turn raise takes on a totally different meaning.

Just a few thoughts.

[soda]

1) I think our differences here stem from the fact that the opponent was known to me. Like you said, you are assuming a "typical" opponent and making your decisions with this frame of reference. In the case of a typical opponent, I agree with nearly everything you've said. Typical opponent + straight up poker = getting the money.

This wasn't a typical opponent and I should have been more clear about that in my post.

You brought up a good point, though. I may have tossed the best hand here. Of course, that's why I posted it. Laying down bad hands and saving a few bets can often turn a losing session into a winner. Just like calling too often will surely provide me with all the comforts of a losing session - a good night's sleep.

2) Against a typical opponent - I would three bet JJ sometimes too. Against this guy, I'd almost never 3 bet his early raise with JJ.

3) Agreed.

4) Haven't seen this guy get tricky. That doesn't mean he doesn't from time to time. I just felt his incidence of trickiness is low enough to dump two outers profitably against him. I could be wrong.

I also feel that dumping this hand against a typical opponent is very likely to be correct. I'd have to run some numbers to substantiate that, though.

Best of luck,

soda

[Ed Miller]

I am a novice, and I post "advice" on many threads. I do it because I want to force myself to put my ideas into words. There are two ways to learn... one is reading a problem and then reading the solution... and another is reading a problem, coming up with your own solution and writing it down, and then being accountable for what you have said. I find that when you just read the solution (in poker or really any other subject) that you tend to say, "sure, sure, I understand," but haven't really internalized the answer. That's why I write my answers down. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If a more experienced poster replies to me and tells me I'm an idiot, so be it. I may have an ego in some things, but I certainly don't have a poker ego. There are many things I still don't understand about the game... and being told that my thinking is wrong is just the thing I need to get better.

What I truly don't understand are the people that complain about the poor quality of "advice" on the forum... especially the ones that resort to name-calling and personal attacks (not you, vehn... others). They complain that inexperienced players are giving poor advice and that the "quality" of the site has deteriorated. Anyone who spends a day or two reading threads on this site knows who the experienced posters are and who the novices are. If the fact that not every member of this community is an expert and here to give top-notch advice 24/7 bothers you, then I suggest that you simply not read the posts written by the novices. Why on earth is that so difficult?

I think the fact that you, or anyone else, can post a hand on this site... and have that hand analyzed by Mason or Ray Zee or any number of other accomplished, excellent players is a true gift. I personally intend to use that gift as it is intended and try, within the rules of the game, to get the most out of the site. I hope you continue to as well, vehn.