Who makes this flop call?

[Philuva]

This is from a $20-$40 online game. I am in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 5 limpers to the SB. The SB raises. I make it 3 bets from the BB. Everyone calls and the SB caps it. All call. 7 players to the flop for 28 small bets.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. It gets checked to a MP who bets. Another MP raises. CO 3-bets. SB folds.

There are still 2 players to act behind you. Who makes this call?

[DaShark]

Your over most likely isnt good here so you're drawing to a ten or runner runner spades. I'd say it's fold time.

[Ulysses]

Well, it seemed like an easy fold on first glance, then I counted the bets and, hmmmmmm, that's close, isn't it?

28+1+2+3 = 34. If nobody caps it, you'll get 12:1 or better. If it's capped, you'll get somewhere between 9:1 and 10:1 (or maybe better if one of the other flop checkers calls).

So, it's close, but you also have plenty of implied odds with this field. Someone could have full house redraws against you if you make your hand on the turn, but you also have backdoor flush possibilities.

Sometimes I call here, sometimes I fold. But what I really would have done is bet this flop.

[Philuva]

With this large a field, what are the advantages of betting this flop?

[Vehn]

I like betting the flop plenty. You're going to want to see the turn for sure anyways and you know at least one bet is going in somewhere. Betting out disguises your hand for basically no additional cost and limits your liability in that its possible that your initial bet will cause someone not to raise, in other words you won't be faced with a difficult decision on the flop like you did here because you're artificially giving yourself pot odds to call additional bets on the flop. If that makes any sense. Also since its online with a 4 bet cap it also limits your liability to a degree.

I think the 3 bet preflop is OK if and only if one of two things apply: the SB will often raise here with good multiway hands i.e. small pairs and stuff like JTs (or is just an idiot), AND your 3 bet will probably narrow the field; or you think all of the limpers will call 2 cold. And its still probably not a good 3-bet here in the latter situation.

[Philuva]

Good points. Should have bet the flop. I am not too worried about trying to thin the field as both my draws are to the nuts and my A out is probably not good no matter what. So no reason to go for a check raise. And if everyone calls my single bet, I am really not worse off.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
With this large a field, what are the advantages of betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly to see the turn for cheaper. You 3-bet pre-flop. Now betting into this board will make it tough for anyone without some real goods to raise you.

On the other hand, if you just check, people might raise and re-raise w/ much less.

[Gabe]

This is about as close as it gets.

As Dirty Harry would say: "You feeling lucky today punk."

Maybe betting out on the flop would have been a good idea. You wouldn't have gotten everyone to fold but it may have kept the betting a little more controlled.

[elysium]

hi phil
no, you can't call these. you could easily be up against 2 pair and may have to split the pot. your outs are crippled, and if the ace gets there, you don't like it anymore. it's no good for you phil.

[brad]

with the nut flush runner runner i think u have to stay in there.

but realize that someone has got to have the JT for the open ender, so i dont think u have 4 outs to a gutshot.

on the other hand, i think because of this you can lay down on the turn (if no spade ) pretty easily even if you have long odds.