KK Question

SpiderMnkE · #1 08-04-2004, 10:46 AM

Ok... I have seen this happen quite a few times lately... sometimes twice a day... playing a couple tables at a time for hours on end.

I will see two guys get into a raising war pf... which results in an all-in pf by both players. I say to myself... AA vs KK... and sure enough... every time is has been.

Is there any point where you should realize your KK is against AA... or should you always go to the felt with KK.

It isn't just happening with little stacks either... I've seen some relatively deep stacks get crushed this way.

PokerFink · #2 08-04-2004, 11:05 AM

Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

For the rest of us, I think having KK vs AA is just a death warrant. Chalk it up to horrid luck and buy-in again.

JohnG · #3 08-04-2004, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth talks crap. He laid down QQ twice in the wsop to lower pairs, so I find it hard to believe a guy that takes pride in big laydowns has never mistakenly laid down KK preflop. It's his ego talking.

Generally, KK is a hand you live or die by if it all goes in preflop. At lower levels because you are against bad players. At higher levels for psychological reasons. On very deep money, you do back off at some point and see the flop rather than get allin.

Truly good players do not make a habit of folding KK preflop.

SpiderMnkE · #4 08-04-2004, 02:02 PM

Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip. He knew he was good enough to succeed without them. He was also able to build his stack significantly despite those folds.

Hellmuth plays goot.

I believe he probably did make those folds correctly to aces.

JohnG · #5 08-04-2004, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he wasn't in a coinflip, so he read it very wrong. If he can read it wrong, then he can read being against aces wrong and mistakenly fold kings.

I mean, one of the pairs was 77 I think. If he can misread someone that bad, then someone could easily have JJ or AK when he reads them for aces. Big laydowns are his biggest fault, and if he does fold KK preflop as he claims, there is no question he has done so against a worse hand. People are always re-raising him preflop to get him to laydown. That's why you should not make a habit of making big laydowns.

He also claimed folding the QQ was right even against the lower pair he would have been against. Do you also believe him when he says this, or is there the slightest possibility his ego does a lot of his talking?

SpiderMnkE · #6 08-04-2004, 03:02 PM

I don't know the entire situation. But I'm sure he had a reason for it. The fact that the guy had 77 is irrelevent. Maybe he made a bad read there but I believe he knows what he is doing.

He knows the risk/reward and has a decent ability to access his current competition in the tournament.

He obviously knew that there would be much better post flop situations where he knows with much more certainty that he is ahead.

It was probably early in the tournament and the blinds weren't big enough for him to be making any kind of gamble. I bet he had tons of time and very bad opponents. So for him... the laydown probably was correct.

As for folding KK... it might not have been the same type of situation at all. The stacks could have been very deep and he could be on a 4th raise by a super super tight player. I imagine that most of his KK laydowns were to AA.

HajiShirazu · #7 08-06-2004, 06:32 AM

The really horrible thing was that he made some of these folds face up, if I remember correctly. What could be worse?

SpiderMnkE · #8 08-06-2004, 08:15 AM

I never said I make these folds. Also... I have recently learned that on the QQ v 77 hand Phil said he put the guy on no better than Jacks. It was also at least day 2 of the main event.

If that's the case... that is retarded.

Folding face up... I sure hope that wasn't bragging.

But... I did see him at a final table on TV the other night. Getting sucked out on by our boy Gavin Griffin. So... he must not suck to be at the final table of a wsop event. Doesn't he also tie the record for most bracelets or some chit.

Phil plays goot. Sometimes he's a pussy.. sometimes he's a baby. But he got game

EverettKings · #9 08-04-2004, 11:22 AM

Online, without some EXTREME read on your opponent, you'd have to pry KK out of my cold, dead hands preflop. The players are fishy enough that they could get into these wars with anything, often QQ, AK, JJ, etc. You have to be damn sure its AA to let it go, and online I doubt I will ever be THAT sure.

Raiser · #10 08-04-2004, 11:45 AM

I think you gotta be willing to get all your chips in pre-flop with KK in the online games. Of course my experience is with Party Poker which are some pretty bad games. I am constantly seeing JJ, QQ, AK, even any Ace get pushed all in before the flop.

In the games I play it is unlikely that you are up against AA and even when you are you have a 20% shot at cracking the Aces.