Standard 10/20 preflop play?

[Mr. Curious]

It has been a while since I've played limit, so I thought I'd double check a few preflop decisions from today:

Live 10-20
9 handed

Hand 1:

My first two hands (BB & SB) resulted in chops. This is my third hand at the table.

Hero is on the button with 66

Preflop: Folded to CO who raises, Hero folds...

<In hindsight, this could have been a steal. Was Hero's fold correct or would the better play have been to 3-bet (or just call)?>

Hand 2:

MP2 is a thinking TAG.

Hero is the SB with AQo

Preflop: UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero folds...

<I'd have called if it was suited, but I'm used to NL and this hand is toast to a re-raise (and most raises)>

Hand 3:

Hero is UTG+1 with KQo

Preflop: UTG calls, Hero calls...

<Should this be a raise rather than a call?>

[SlyGuy]

I think all are good.

My two cents:

Hand one:

Calling is not an option. 3 bet or fold. Personally, I just fold. All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards. It's likely that overs will flop and if you don't hit your set it becomes an expensive guessing game.

OTOH, I can't argue too much with someone who advocates 3 betting here but it's just not for me.

Hand 2:

I fold that hand without thinking about it for a moment. A-Qo in bad position with a good player making it 3 bets and a cold calling button? Ugh! If anybody wants to buy that hand from me they can have it for a dollar.

Hand 3:

KQo looks nice but it's a trouble hand as well. I suppose that an argument could be made for raising but I hardly like to play it at all up front. That doesn't mean I don't but I want a loose game with passive, unobservant players. If the game is full of good players, who know what I'm doing, I won't play it in that spot at all.

[Mr. Curious]

[ QUOTE ]
My two cents:

Hand one:

Calling is not an option. 3 bet or fold. Personally, I just fold. All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards. It's likely that overs will flop and if you don't hit your set it becomes an expensive guessing game.

OTOH, I can't argue too much with someone who advocates 3 betting here but it's just not for me.


[/ QUOTE ]
Had I been at the table longer and gotten a better feel for it, this would have been an auto 3-bet against the CO.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:

I fold that hand without thinking about it for a moment. A-Qo in bad position with a good player making it 3 bets and a cold calling button? Ugh! If anybody wants to buy that hand from me they can have it for a dollar.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was figuring, though the TAG's 3-bet could also have been an isolation bet against that opponent. But when the button cold called...

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3:

KQo looks nice but it's a trouble hand as well. I suppose that an argument could be made for raising but I hardly like to play it at all up front. That doesn't mean I don't but I want a loose game with passive, unobservant players. If the game is full of good players, who know what I'm doing, I won't play it in that spot at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this time, the TAG was gone and the table had loosened up a bit (forgot to add that to the hand). There was maybe one decent player left at the table. Does that change things?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By this time, the TAG was gone and the table had loosened up a bit (forgot to add that to the hand). There was maybe one decent player left at the table. Does that change things?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, IMO! I play it every time in a loose game (that's the only kind of game I'll play in anymore, actually, and if they tighten up I leave, there are so many other games to choose from and I play all forms of poker) against players who will call down with lesser hands/pieces of the flop. I'll try to randomize raises with that hand as well but when the other players aren't even watching it doesn't make much difference. They see their hand, it's half-way decent, and they won't let it go. KQo is a big hand in that kind of game. But, still, you have to face reality. It's a vulnerable hand, it can cost you money, because "even a blind squirrel.............."

[ErrantNight]

don't listen to howard. KQo is a great hand. he has yet to make an argument for it being a trouble hand. why is it a trouble hand? you're "in trouble" against AK and AQ and approximately nothing else. why would you ever assume that AK and/or AQ are out there, just because you have KQ?

against a raise, their possibility is enough to make KQo a pretty easy fold most of the time... but behind a limp? that's monsters-under-the-bed thinking to look down at KQo and think you're in trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
don't listen to howard. KQo is a great hand. he has yet to make an argument for it being a trouble hand. why is it a trouble hand? you're "in trouble" against AK and AQ and approximately nothing else. why would you ever assume that AK and/or AQ are out there, just because you have KQ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Check it out on twodimes.net for yourself. KQo is a dog to A3s by ~ 60/40 depending on the suits. To A5o it's something like 58.5/41.5. At 10-20, esp. w/o a raise, lots of players will play any ace, and love to play suited aces. The KQo is a dog to those hands. It's a dog to a pair of 8's. Just because there are other hands (A-Q, like you said) to which KQo is a real big dog doesn't mean that it does so well against many others, which it doesn't. That doesn't mean to be a sissy with them it just means they can be a trouble hand.

pokenum -h ah 5d - kc qs
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d Ah 989977 57.82 715566 41.79 6761 0.39 0.580
Qs Kc 715566 41.79 989977 57.82 6761 0.39 0.420

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.

Back to the questions. To get a better idea of what's appropriate at 10/20 the Mid-High forum would serve you better. Problem is if posted there the responses will probaly be: If you need to ask basic PF questions you should move down in limits.

For SS:
Hand#1 - is tough, at least for me, without knowing something about the table. If I can't 3-bet to fold out the blinds I would just let it go.

Hand #2- Well played

Hand #3- I raise with one limper in front of me trying to isolate him. Of course the table and the UTG limper may change things.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]

Back to the questions. To get a better idea of what's appropriate at 10/20 the Mid-High forum would serve you better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. SS is the correct place for 10/20 live IMHO

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.



[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have been more careful with the way I said that. And saying it nicely is very much appreciated.

When 5 hands are folded then a little under 20% of the deck has been removed. In 10-20 what cards can we assume have been folded? I assume that "bad" cards have been folded, those belonging to the lower 2/3 of the deck. Is this always the case? Of course not, but the likelihood of the remaining cards being more heavily weighted towards the top 1/3 of the deck are increased. You know that you're going to see overs to a small pair very, very often. 10 folded cards increases the chances of that happening. What then? I don't want to guess where I'm at in a hand and I certainly don't like bleeding off chips in stubborn pursuit. Additionally, I didn't offer that observation as a general rule to play by, just a factor to take into account. If I felt that the CO in that situation would raise with any two it's one thing. If I had respect for that player it's another. I usually don't like small pairs in that spot, but that's me, and it's certainly not the view of many others. I'd rather save my $20 or $30 for a better situation.

Also, the observation I made isn't my own thought, original to me, although I'm sure I'd have realized it sooner or later. If I had it at my fingertips I could point to who knows how many books that bring it up.