The Draft and Ethics

Michael Davis · #1 06-02-2004, 11:13 PM

Alright, I don't really want any "the social contract is garbage" responses, although that may be the right answer.

Anyways, suppose there was a draft and I am drafted. I am obligated to fight. However, the cause is something I do not support at all. (If you need to hypothesize this, assume the government is drafting people to invade France for the stated reason of "being tired of apathy...")

So, I can either go fight or go away.

But, suppose as a citizen of this country who is voluntarily remaining here at this very moment or any given moment, I feel it is my duty to fight when called upon. This could be argued ad infinitum, but I am making a conscious, aware decision to stay in the country despite my qualms with the (hypothetical...) government. Is there any way to escape this conundrum but leave now? Many would say this is an extreme, but it seems to me that it may be the (rare) right thing to do.

I guess I am saying that if I am unwilling to abide by the requirements of this country, the decision should be made now. Even if it is not, dodging a draft may still be better than fighting for other reasons, but that still ranks below making the decision immediately.

Thoughts?

-Michael

elwoodblues · #2 06-02-2004, 11:50 PM

I suspect that more people on this forum would suppor your French war that you would think.

If I were ever drafted for a war of choice/opportunity, I would fight it --- in my opinion, it's a form of slavery and should be held unconstitutional. If I lost my fight, I would choose to go jail on principle. Fleeing to Canada isn't an option as I believe there are 2 integral parts to civil disobedience --- disobeying and facing the consequences of disobeying.

HDPM · #3 06-03-2004, 12:55 AM

"I guess I am saying that if I am unwilling to abide by the requirements of this country, the decision should be made now. Even if it is not, dodging a draft may still be better than fighting for other reasons, but that still ranks below making the decision immediately"

I don't think this is right. Assuming you are a citizen, you have the right to stay here. The fact you may choose to disobey a requirement of the country at some point in the future does not require you to leave now. Particularly if the requirement shifts around. In the case of a possible future dilemma, I think you have the right to stay or leave pending the future, whichever is better for you at the moment. IOW, I don't think it is necessary to leave ahead of time. It may be more consistent with your philosophy, which would mean it is better for you to leave; you might have a happier life. But I do not think there is any obligation to leave or that it is automatically better. It depends.

France would at least be better duty than Iraq. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

ThaSaltCracka · #4 06-03-2004, 01:18 AM

Interesting question.... I don't really have an answer for you, but i no how you feel. The idea of a draft is a somewhat scary thought. I don't know quite how those of you felt during Vietnam, but man, I can honestly say I am worried that this might happen, and many of my friends have this in the back of their mind.

The world is indeed [censored] up right now, and I am starting to lose faith that it will get better. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

ACPlayer · #5 06-03-2004, 04:07 AM

Fleeing to Canada isn't an option as I believe there are 2 integral parts to civil disobedience --- disobeying and facing the consequences of disobeying

Well said.

Ed Miller · #6 06-03-2004, 08:21 AM

I guess I am saying that if I am unwilling to abide by the requirements of this country, the decision should be made now.

You have no obligation to leave YOUR HOME now because the government might adopt an unjust policy in the future.

The "love it or leave it" people can go screw.

jdl22 · #7 06-03-2004, 08:35 AM

I somewhat disagree with the idea that one must decide now and hit the high road to Canada or Europe.

I'm currently of drafting age (24) so I wasn't around during the Vietnam era but as I've heard it when they started out it was relatively easy to get deferments. Later they slowed this down. If this were the case today then they would start out and you could get a concsientious objector or student deferment.

As for the rest I agree. If they draft me and I am unable to get out of it legally otherwise I'm going to the big house. If we were fighting a war where the goal against a country that actually was a threat to the country it would be different.

jdl22 · #8 06-03-2004, 08:36 AM

Did Mason approve this post?

You may have lost some of the conservative customers with that.

Ed Miller · #9 06-03-2004, 08:46 AM

Did Mason approve this post?

You may have lost some of the conservative customers with that.

This is one area where my opinion happens to coincide with the prevailing libertarian sentiment of this board.

Besides, everyone who reads this board is far too intelligent to let a small political difference of opinion stop them from buying my kick ass book. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Ragnar · #10 06-03-2004, 10:35 AM

ThaSaltCracka wrote[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite know how those of you felt during Vietnam,. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I felt and what I did. I was in college during Vietnam. I had a deferment, but I knew that eventually it would run out. I was opposed to this particular war because Congress did not declare it, and we were not attacked. I also thought that conscription was immoral. That is still my position.

So I mailed my draft card back to my draft board as a protest. They ordered me to a physical. I appeared and refused to participate. They ordered me to induction. I appeared and refused to participate.

The US Supreme Court ruled that draft boards could not punitively order men to induction for sending their draft cards back, or refusing to carry them. So we started over. I was out of school and not eligible for a deferment, so they ordered me to a physical. I decided to take the physical and they flunked me on some minor grounds. I suspect that they didn't want me in the Army at that point.

The authorities could have prosecuted me for sending back my draft card, which was a crime punishible by up to five years in prison, or for not carrying it. They chose not to do so. I do think that they would have prosecuted me for refusing induction, if they had gotten to that stage again and it was a legal induction.

Why didn't they prosecute me? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that it was in part because I did all of these things in the SF Bay area, and the sheer numbers were difficult for them to deal with. Some of my friends in the draft resistance movement were prosecuted, but only for draft card burning or refusing induction. Some went to prison.

I don't think that there will be any serious attempt to revive the draft until after the election. If that occurs and if they succeed I will protest again. I thought that we won this fight in the 60's and 70's and it would piss me off to no end if the draft we re-instituted.

Ragnar